The Millionaire Cough: Britain’s Biggest Game Show Scandal

[00:00:00]

[00:00:01] Kyle Risi: What is probably the most famous quiz TV show in UK History and possibly the world?

[00:00:07] Adam Cox: Ooh, is it something like, who wants to be a millionaire?

[00:00:10] Kyle Risi: It is.

[00:00:12] Charles Ingram and his wife Diana, were found guilty of cheating their way using a system of coughs to signal the correct answer.

[00:00:20] meanwhile, backstage in the control room, the production team are running around like headless chickens. They are trying to figure out what the hell they've just witnessed

[00:00:29] Adam Cox: [00:00:30] well that sounds suspicious.

[00:00:30] Kyle Risi: That sounds so suspicious.

[00:00:33] And at trial, Charles, and Diana, are found guilty. And in the process, their entire lives are completely destroyed.

[00:00:40] But people have now started to wonder whether or not they were guilty at all.

[00:00:45] The production company had a very serious financial incentive to not pay out a jackpot.

[00:00:51] And then there's the tape itself, they'd amplified the coughs that supported their theory,

[00:00:56]

[00:00:56] Kyle Risi: Sadly, the Ingrams, they end up losing their home. Both their [00:01:00] reputations are shot

[00:01:01] But Adam, this might have been the biggest misunderstanding ever to hit primetime television

[00:01:06]

[00:01:32] Kyle Risi: Welcome to the Compendium and Assembly of Fascinating Things, a weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering.

[00:01:41] Adam Cox: We explore stories from the darker corners of true crime, the hidden gems of history, and the jaw dropping deeds of extraordinary people.

[00:01:48] Kyle Risi: I'm Kyle Reese, your Ring master for this week's episode.

[00:01:51] Adam Cox: And I'm Adam Cox, the Grapher for this week.

[00:01:56] Kyle Risi: I don't even know what that is. Ah, grapher. Do we really need that? Who [00:02:00] signed that off?

[00:02:00] Adam Cox: Well, um, to explain what my act is, I take, a ring shaped piece of felt.

[00:02:06] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[00:02:06] Adam Cox: And I manipulate it into looking, like various types of hats.

[00:02:10] If you don't believe me, here's a guy doing it right now.

[00:02:12] Kyle Risi: What? Okay. Yeah. So he, it's an all black and white video and yeah, he's crafting a bunch of different hats from the different ages,

[00:02:21] Adam Cox: which is an crucial part of a circus.

[00:02:24] Kyle Risi: how,

[00:02:25] Adam Cox: I dunno. See, look at the guy.

[00:02:26] He is got so many different hats, about 14 different styles you can make

[00:02:29] Kyle Risi: that's pretty [00:02:30] good

[00:02:30] Adam Cox: from a single piece of felt. So it originated in the Parisian streets in the 16 hundreds as a busking type act. Mm-hmm. And so now I'm bringing it to the competitive circus.

[00:02:38] Kyle Risi: So you are also brainstorming new acts to keep us fresh.

[00:02:41] Unique. Yeah. Bringing back the old school stuff.

[00:02:44] Adam Cox: I'm gonna keep those customers coming with Myography.

[00:02:47] Kyle Risi: Guys, if you are new to the show and you wanna support us, like we say every single week, the best way to support the show and enjoy exclusive perks is to join us over on Patreon. Signing up for free gets you access to next week's episode a whole seven days [00:03:00] early.

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[00:03:06] There's like 20 episodes in there. Mm-hmm. Go hunt them out and enjoy.

[00:03:10] Kyle Risi: And as a special thank you, our certified freak team members now receive an exclusive compendium key chain. All you gotta do is just DM us with your address and we'll send one straight to your door so we can always be dangling right there near your stinky crotch.

[00:03:25] Adam Cox: And lastly, guys, please follow us on your favorite podcast app and leave us a review. Your [00:03:30] support really helps others find us and keeps these amazing stories coming.

[00:03:33] Kyle Risi: And this week's episode is an episode suggested by Ollie Rainer from Berkshire.

[00:03:39] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:03:40] Kyle Risi: And when I saw the suggestion, I initially discounted it because I thought it was some kind of plague thing from the 16 hundreds. Mm-hmm. It didn't really grab my attention, but I looked into it just to see what it was all about.

[00:03:51] And boy. I do not regret it because Adam, today on the compendium, we are diving into an assembly of coughs that [00:04:00] answered more than questions.

[00:04:02] Adam Cox: Okay. Coughs. Something about a cough, obviously, but I have no idea right now.

[00:04:06] Kyle Risi: Okay, so this might help you out, Adam.

[00:04:08] What is probably the most famous quiz TV show in UK History and possibly the world?

[00:04:15] Adam Cox: Ooh, is it something like, who wants to be a millionaire?

[00:04:18] Kyle Risi: It is. Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?

[00:04:20] Adam Cox: Uh, the Coughing Gate Scandal.

[00:04:23] Kyle Risi: Yes. How crazy is that story? We actually know this story because we watched the ITV [00:04:30] drama in 2020 called Quiz. Do you remember that?

[00:04:33] Adam Cox: Vaguely, yes.

[00:04:34] Kyle Risi: Vaguely, that's why when I started reading this, I was like, this rings a bell. it clicked for me when I found out that there was this ITV drama. But Adam, I just cannot overstate what a total phenomenon this show was when it aired back in 1998.

[00:04:50] When it did, it exploded almost immediately spreading to more than a hundred different countries around the world. It is by far the bestselling [00:05:00] format of this type of show in television history.

[00:05:03] Adam Cox: Didn't it even make Slum Dog Millionaire? Wasn't that like part of the basis of that?

[00:05:07] Kyle Risi: I think that was part of the plot, wasn't it?

[00:05:09] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:05:09] Kyle Risi: So something I found really interesting, and I think you might too, between its start so between 1998 when it first Ed and 2025, there've been 710 contestants to take the hot seat and play for a million pounds here in the uk. How many people do you think have actually gone off and won the million pound prize?

[00:05:29] Adam Cox: It's [00:05:30] gotta be like a fewer a year at least. 20 odd winners. 30 winners.

[00:05:33] Kyle Risi: Actually, Adam, it's just seven.

[00:05:35] Adam Cox: Oh, really?

[00:05:35] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Which honestly, I thought would be so much more. Apparently in the US there's been around 15 winners, but even still, even though it's more than in the uk, I still thought it would be a lot more considering how long the show's been running.

[00:05:46] But the crazy thing is, is that at its peak, the show was one of the most watched quiz shows in history in 1998. It attracted more than 19 million people each week just here in the uk.

[00:05:57] Adam Cox: Wow. that's like one of the best ratings, surely. [00:06:00] Back then.

[00:06:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And in the US at its peak, it was attracting 30 million viewers per episode, which is almost the population of entire countries.

[00:06:07] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:06:08] Kyle Risi: Of course. Over the years, there've been some iconic moments in the USA. In 1999, John Carpenter became the first million dollar winner. He manages to breeze through all 15 questions without using a lifeline at all.

[00:06:21] That is until the final question where he uses his phone, a friend to call his dad, only to tell him that he didn't need any help and he just wanted to let him know [00:06:30] that he was about to win a million dollars.

[00:06:31] Adam Cox: Wow. Smug.

[00:06:33] Kyle Risi: So smug. The thing is though, how shit would it have been if he'd got the answer wrong?

[00:06:38] Adam Cox: That would've been hilarious.

[00:06:39] Kyle Risi: Either way. It would've been an iconic moment, right?

[00:06:41] Adam Cox: Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:41] Kyle Risi: but in 2001 in the uk, the show was rocked by the strangest scandals in British history. It was dubbed Adam a British heist. So technically this episode, the coughing scandal, fits under our high series.

[00:06:57] Adam Cox: Ah, did it ever air on tv?

[00:06:59] Kyle Risi: [00:07:00] It did not, and we'll go into that. But basically, contestants, Charles Ingram and his wife Diana, who was in the audience as well as a Welsh University lecturer named Tewin Ock, were all found guilty of cheating their way to the $1 million prize using a system of coughs to signal the correct answer.

[00:07:20] So yeah, the episode never add, but the Tate that was used as evidence in the trial has since been released. And a lot of people even here in the uk, especially before [00:07:30] 2020, had never heard of the story. And that's because Adam, the scandal happened between the ninth and the 10th of September, 2001.

[00:07:38] Adam Cox: Ah.

[00:07:39] Kyle Risi: And as we know, the very next day, the world was rocked by the nine 11 attacks in New York, which ended up completely overshadowing this entire story.

[00:07:46] Adam Cox: Do you know what we've had that happen on a few of our episodes where there's this big revelation that's supposed to come out. We had it with the monster of Florence.

[00:07:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:07:53] Adam Cox: And obviously nine 11 kind of dominates, which understandably so.

[00:07:57] Kyle Risi: Sure. It was a big thing, right?

[00:07:59] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:07:59] Kyle Risi: The [00:08:00] accusation, of course, was that Charles would read out the questions really slowly. He would mull over the answers one by one, and then Tewin would then cough the moment Charles read out the correct answer, and Charles doesn't really stick to the system on one of the questions, actually really hyper fixates on an answer where he says, I think it's this one. I think it's this one. He's supposed to go through all the answers. Mm-hmm. And because he's messing up the system, what ends up happening is Tewin throws out a cough that he basically says the word no in it.

[00:08:29] Adam Cox: [00:08:30] Right. Okay. So

[00:08:30] Kyle Risi: he goes, no.

[00:08:32] Adam Cox: Um, well that sounds suspicious.

[00:08:33] Kyle Risi: That sounds so suspicious. Doesn't it?

[00:08:35] Adam Cox: Is that, what was the giveaway and then they had to go back into the tapes?

[00:08:38] Kyle Risi: I think so. So there comes a moment during the episode where producers backstage, they're seeing all this going on. They go, something's not quite right here. then all of a sudden everything starts reaffirming what they're starting to believe.

[00:08:51] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:51] Kyle Risi: And so it really gets solidified when they hear this no cough.

[00:08:55] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:56] Kyle Risi: And in the end, Charles of course goes off and [00:09:00] wins the $1 million prize, but because producers were suspicious, something was going on during the recording, after the show.

[00:09:06] They freeze the check and they immediately call the police. And at trial, Charles, Diana, and Quinn are all found guilty. And in the process, their entire lives are completely destroyed.

[00:09:17] But more than 20 years later, people have now started to wonder whether or not they were guilty at all.

[00:09:23] Because when you start digging into the evidence, things really do start to get murky for one, the production company [00:09:30] behind who wants to be a millionaire? The very people who brought this case forward. Had a very serious financial incentive to not pay out a jackpot.

[00:09:38] Adam Cox: Yeah. But surely they must have, catered for this. They must have been able to work out when you're going into this show that one in X amount of people are probably gonna win this. Therefore, we need to factor that in for our budget.

[00:09:49] Kyle Risi: Do you remember we were talked about how many winners there'd been over the last 25 years? We thought there would be like 40 odd, right?

[00:09:55] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:55] Kyle Risi: The reality is there's only been seven in the last 25, 27 years.

[00:09:59] Adam Cox: [00:10:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:00] Kyle Risi: However, by the time this jackpot was due to be paid out, they'd already been two winners.

[00:10:06] Adam Cox: Oh, I see. So they're a bit lying. Hang on a minute. Didn't expect this.

[00:10:09] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. That is the assertion that people are making.

[00:10:11] Adam Cox: So Charles Ingram was the third winner.

[00:10:13] Kyle Risi: He was going to be the third.

[00:10:14] Adam Cox: Ah,

[00:10:14] Kyle Risi: But the reality is that immediately a month after

[00:10:18] Adam Cox: mm-hmm.

[00:10:18] Kyle Risi: Another winner had taken place.

[00:10:20] Adam Cox: Really?

[00:10:20] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:10:21] Adam Cox: Wow.

[00:10:22] Kyle Risi: A lot of winners in just a very short space of time.

[00:10:24] Adam Cox: Yeah. It must have made it harder since

[00:10:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Because then I think there's a big long stint of years and years where there just [00:10:30] wasn't one. And it's probably for that reason, we can't keep paying out. We need to make these questions harder.

[00:10:34] And then there's the tape itself, the centerpiece of the prosecution's entire case. It was, the production company who supplied it and they admitted to enhancing the audio to make the coughs easier to hear. But when you look closer, you start to realize that those enhancements were highly selective.

[00:10:53] They'd amplified the coughs that supported their theory, that something dodgy was going on while conveniently muting and [00:11:00] ignoring the ones that didn't. But the question is, were the coughs just a coincidence in the studio full of 200 other audience members?

[00:11:09] or was there actually a conspiracy to cheat the system? And a lot of renewed interest in this case actually came after the miniseries in 2020 called Quiz, the show leaves people firmly on the fence.

[00:11:21] It ends up drawing criticism from Chris Tarren himself, the original UK host, who says that in his mind, there is no question that they were guilty. [00:11:30] Like the fact that they're playing with that mm-hmm. To him was just not, not very ethical.

[00:11:34] But we've gotta come onto his side as well, because when he first heard about the notion that they were cheating, he was like, this is fucking ridiculous. His mind only changes when he sees the evidence, which is this tape that's very clearly docked. Right?

[00:11:48] Adam Cox: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:49] Kyle Risi: The guy who actually wrote the show, James Graham, he actually heard about the scandal by seeing the actual evidence tape, right?

[00:11:55] The tape that Cellar door had provided. Mm-hmm. And he was convinced that they were guilty. [00:12:00] But after doing the research, then starts to change his mind. So he's gone through almost the opposite journey that Chris Terence has gone through

[00:12:06] Adam Cox: Interesting.

[00:12:07] Kyle Risi: But Adam, today on the Compendium, I'm gonna tell you about the 2001 Who wants to Be a Millionaire Coughing scandal, what went down, how it went horribly wrong, and whether or not this was just a bizarre coincidence, or if the production company behind the show really did manipulate the evidence to make sure Charles, Diana and Quinn never saw that $1 million.

[00:12:28] Adam Cox: I remember there being a [00:12:30] documentary, about it, so before the TV show, and it seemed pretty convincing that they were guilty. Really? I always remember that. 'Cause I think it was the first time that the footage was released and you can hear all the coughs. Mm-hmm. But obviously these are the coughs that were enhanced.

[00:12:41] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[00:12:42] Adam Cox: I'm intrigued to understand, actually, could they be innocent?

[00:12:45] Kyle Risi: I, for some reason, have a beam, my bonnet that they are innocent, that this was just coincidence. But it'd be really fascinating to see whether or not you are swayed by, I mean, obviously I wrote this episode, so there's gonna be a lot of bias in it.

[00:12:57] But hey, this is just [00:13:00] what my feeling is, and I'm gonna explain to you why I think that there might be innocent. But before we get started, the history of the show is actually really interesting. It was originally meant to be called Cash Mountain. Do you know that?

[00:13:11] Adam Cox: Was it a British show? That doesn't sound like a British quiz show.

[00:13:14] Kyle Risi: No. It was a British show. It was made in Britain. But they eventually did change it to Who Wants To Be a Millionaire after the song. Frank Sinatra sings in the 1956 Film High Society. It's a much better name, right?

[00:13:24] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:13:24] Kyle Risi: It does what it says in the tin.

[00:13:26] Adam Cox: It was the first game show where you could win a million pounds. That was the kind of big deal about it.

[00:13:29] Kyle Risi: [00:13:30] So to lay down some context, I'm gonna briefly run through what the show entails before we get into the story.

[00:13:35] Basically the premise of the show is that there are 10 contestants that start each episode with a preliminary round called Fastest Finger first.

[00:13:43] The host will read out a question where the contestants must then rearrange the answers into the correct order. It's either like A, B, C, or D, whoever is the fastest, takes the hot seat and has a chance to play for the $1 million prize.

[00:13:56] The idea is that you have to answer 15 multiple choice [00:14:00] questions Each correct answer takes you close to a million dollars. There is of course no time limit, at any time, you can decide to walk away with whatever money you have banked so far.

[00:14:10] But if you get the answer wrong, you then do drop back to the last guaranteed milestone question, By the time you get to question 10 for 32,000, you basically get like a free swing, don't you, at the $64,000 question. Because even if you get it wrong, you still leave for the 32,000. Right? Yeah. So a lot of people treated as such.

[00:14:28] If you [00:14:30] get a question wrong on the $500,000 question. Then you drop down to 32,000.

[00:14:34] Adam Cox: Yeah, that's it. That would always be like the risk. Like would you want to risk like 200 odd thousand? No.

[00:14:40] Kyle Risi: and so of course if you answer incorrectly before question five, then you leave with nothing. Adam is brutal. Can you imagine getting to question five and answering it wrong, being so confident? And then you lose everything.

[00:14:51] Because the first five questions are really easy, So you probably don't even think to use your lifeline.

[00:14:55] Adam Cox: But if someone did have to use all their lifelines before that point.

[00:14:58] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:14:58] Charles uses a few [00:15:00] of his lifelines before question five I think.

[00:15:01] Adam Cox: Really?

[00:15:02] Kyle Risi: From what I can remember. Yeah.

[00:15:03] But in the early days, in order to get on the show, you had to call a premium rate phone number that basically charged by the minute. The show was so popular and people were so desperate to get on that some people spent thousands of pounds just trying. And even then it wasn't even guaranteed that you would get into the hot seat, because remember, you still had to pass the fastest finger first,

[00:15:22] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. It's quite a gamble to spend that much money trying to just get on the show or audition, essentially. Because you still probably get vetted anyway before you [00:15:30] get into the

[00:15:30] Kyle Risi: Oh, yeah.

[00:15:30] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:15:31] Kyle Risi: 100%. You have to spend all this effort trying to work out how to appease the producers and get on the show. Mm-hmm. But then once you get to the show, you've gotta go through another round, which is just, it makes it really difficult.

[00:15:41] In the hot seat, as you know, you have access to three lifelines.

[00:15:44] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:45] Kyle Risi: The first is of course, 50 50 . it's good if you've already narrowed it down to a couple options. But sometimes it really backfires, especially if the answer that you thought it was ends up disappearing.

[00:15:55] Adam Cox: I feel like that's probably the best one that you could have. I feel like that one, at [00:16:00] least you've got a better shot of getting it right.

[00:16:02] Kyle Risi: Really.

[00:16:02] Adam Cox: Whereas with Ask the audience. Mm-hmm. Or phone a friend who knows if they've got it right.

[00:16:07] Kyle Risi: Exactly. That's the thing though.

[00:16:08] So the next lifeline is ask the audience. Everyone in the studio has to press what they think. The answer is either A, B, C, or D into a keypad, and a percentage breakdown then appears on the screen.

[00:16:17] It's really good for general knowledge or pop culture questions, but if the question is really obscure, it can cause like a narrow split in the results. What would your threshold be if you had two answers come up and one was, let's say 60%, the other one was [00:16:30] 40%.

[00:16:30] Would you trust the 60% one?

[00:16:32] Adam Cox: I think so. If you've got nothing else to go off,

[00:16:35] Kyle Risi: yeah. I would potentially use another lifeline if I had it.

[00:16:39] And then of course there is phone. A friend contestants will submit three names of people who will be standing by in case they need to use them. But also when you think about the maths, it's just incredible. Every episode there are 10 contestants. Each one of those contestants has submitted three names.

[00:16:53] Mm-hmm. To potentially be called if they make it into the hot seat. So across the country, on [00:17:00] every single episode, you've got 30 people just standing by waiting to potentially receive a phone call.

[00:17:05] Adam Cox: I'm sure I've watched it where people have tried to call a friend and they didn't get through.

[00:17:09] Kyle Risi: No, I've never seen that.

[00:17:10] Adam Cox: I'm sure that has happened. Yeah.

[00:17:12] Kyle Risi: How embarrassing. What do you do?

[00:17:13] Adam Cox: Well, I guess you would have to call someone else if back,

[00:17:15] Kyle Risi: but what if it's, but you, you select your phone of friends specifically based on oh, this is a geography question. Steve knows this one.

[00:17:24] Adam Cox: Sure.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:24] Kyle Risi: And then you try to call Steve and he doesn't answer. Then you gotta call Susan who's all about music.

[00:17:29] Adam Cox: Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:30]

[00:17:30] Kyle Risi: Ooh,

[00:17:30] Adam Cox: she's rubbish.

[00:17:32] Kyle Risi: Who would be on your phone or friend list?

[00:17:34] Adam Cox: Um, well it's a good point. I guess if there's, if I needed a history question, maybe you, if I needed a geography question, maybe my fr uh, geography friend teacher Anne.

[00:17:44] Kyle Risi: That's true.

[00:17:45] Adam Cox: She would

[00:17:45] Kyle Risi: know.

[00:17:46] Adam Cox: And if I, and if I needed, a math question, I don't know. My nephew, he's good at math. He's learning

[00:17:51] Kyle Risi: math. That's true. Your nephew is like a bit of a math genius. And so of course when the show took off, it was quickly franchised around the world, but it came with very strict [00:18:00] international rules.

[00:18:00] All the hosts, believe it or not, were mandated to wear Amani suits because that was what the original British show host Chris Tart Wart on the very first episode.

[00:18:10] Oh, right. So we continue to wear Armani suits. They were also not allowed to change music or the lighting. And also the chairs all had to vibrate slightly to build up tension while you're in the seat. Ah, over the years though, of course, the rules have relaxed,

[00:18:22] in the early days, they were really militant about creative control. You just did not mess with Who Wants to Be a Millionaire as a franchise [00:18:30] show.

[00:18:30] Adam Cox: Yeah, they've got the formula right. So it's kind of carbon copies throughout the world.

[00:18:34] Kyle Risi: But also they have a real history of being litigious. Like people have come forward over the years to claim that they'd invented the show. But Cell Door, the production company, they have no qualms about taking people to court and very often getting to sign an NDA so we don't really know what the situation was in the aftermath of that.

[00:18:52] The point is, you do not mess with who wants to be a Millionaire.

[00:18:55] Adam Cox: So are you saying that a lot of people have thought about this idea? I mean, it's [00:19:00] probably not that original asking a load of questions, win a load of money.

[00:19:03] Kyle Risi: If you invent a show, there's going to be some degree of overlap and that's probably what they're arguing over like, oh, I invented this little bit. Or the hot seat or the asked the audience or whatever. Sure.

[00:19:11] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:19:11] Kyle Risi: Not the whole format as a whole, I don't think.

[00:19:14] And so the fact that who wants to be a millionaire can be litigious creates this perfect storm for what happens to Charles and Diana Ingram.

[00:19:23] Now Charles and Diana are from wheelchair in England. Charles is privately educated. He's actually very [00:19:30] intelligent, and he comes from a middle class family. By the time the story starts, he's a well-respected guy. He's a soldier in the British Army at this point. He's been serving since 1987 till 2003.

[00:19:39] He meets Diana when she's trained to become a teacher. And in 1989, the pair, Mary Diana, she becomes a homemaker to raise, of course, their three daughters.

[00:19:48] She doesn't work, but Charles is steadily rising through the ranks first to captain. And then by 1996 he becomes a major, which I don't really know the difference. Captain Major sounds like Captain would be higher than major. I [00:20:00] just don't get it.

[00:20:00] Adam Cox: Yeah. I don't really know the ranking, but it sounds like a big deal.

[00:20:02] Kyle Risi: But he's a major,

[00:20:03] Adam Cox: he's a major, so

[00:20:04] Kyle Risi: he's, that's why he becomes called the coughing major.

[00:20:07] Adam Cox: Yeah. And that's why he's so respected.

[00:20:09] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Respectable. In 1999, when Who wants to be a Millionaire is at the absolute height of his popularity, Charles is deployed to Bosnia on peacekeeping duties. Meanwhile, back at home, Diana is completely hooked on the show.

[00:20:22] It's right up a street. And that's because she comes from a family who live for pub quizzing for as long as she can remember. Her dad and [00:20:30] her brother would head out every week. to play their pub quizzes.

[00:20:32] And so by the time they're adults, Diana and her brother, they are completely obsessed with getting onto the show. They were amongst those people who would literally spend thousands and thousands of pounds calling that premium rate number. Just to get on, it's estimated that Diana spent 2000 pounds, this is 1998 money by the way,

[00:20:49] Adam Cox: that is so much money. Let's just put it into some kind of stocks.

[00:20:54] Kyle Risi: I guess in her mind she is seeing this as an investment. If she can get on, she can do well, she'll earn that [00:21:00] money back.

[00:21:00] Adam Cox: Yeah. I mean does her quiz team always do well then?

[00:21:03] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I mean they're, they're intelligent people.

[00:21:05] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:06] Kyle Risi: But to her dismay, her brother Adrian actually makes it onto the show first. His first attempt is in January, 2000, but he doesn't make it past the fastest finger first round.

[00:21:17] That doesn't deter him though. So what he does is he builds himself a homemade, fastest finger first practice machine, uhhuh, and basically he drills himself every night.

[00:21:27] Adam Cox: Wow. That is dedication

[00:21:29] Kyle Risi: with a fingering [00:21:30] machine. Try to put a dirty joke in there, but Yeah. Kind of went over your head. Sorry.

[00:21:35] Adam Cox: Yeah, I was just thinking that the lengths this guy went to, to try and get on the show.

[00:21:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I know for sure when he finally thinks that he's nailed it, he tries to get back on. But again, he can't get through the selection process. This time he kind of starts browsing online forums which is when he stumbles across an online community of hardcore quizzes called the Consortium, where he gets tons of advice on how to basically [00:22:00] sound more interesting to producers during those audition calls.

[00:22:03] And remember they are making a show after all so while you of course need to be intelligent, they're more looking for people who would be interesting to show on television.

[00:22:12] Adam Cox: Yeah. You've gotta be entertaining, like talking through the answers and you can't just be straight-faced

[00:22:17] Kyle Risi: exactly. You need to have a kind of, a bit of personality behind you,

[00:22:20] Adam Cox: bit of charisma, uniqueness. Exactly. Nerve and tally.

[00:22:23] Kyle Risi: You need to be cunty.

[00:22:24] So the consortium is run by a guy called Patti Spooner.

[00:22:27] He drops out of university to [00:22:30] make trivia. Basically, his full-time career, he starts off as a games master running pub quizzes and tournaments and things like that. But he also applies for literally every single game show going, including who wants to be a millionaire. By the time he's in his thirties, he has been on so many shows that he's actually a bit of a celebrity amongst these hardcore quiz online.

[00:22:51] He's actually the first ever person to appear on multiple international versions of the show, including Australia, the uk, and the Irish editions.

[00:22:59] [00:23:00] Naturally everyone on these online communities, they wanna know how he managed to do it, and this is what leads him to create the consortium, this online community that Adrian stumbles across. Mm-hmm. While he's trying to work out,

[00:23:13] I see how he can get onto the show.

[00:23:15] On the UK show Patty, he ends up walking away with $250,000. Right? So he does really well in the UK version.

[00:23:21] Adam Cox: Sure.

[00:23:21] Kyle Risi: The Australian version, also walks away with 250,000, but in Ireland he manages to just secure a thousand euros.

[00:23:28] Apparently he stumbles on the name of p [00:23:30] Brosnan's Baby, which was a pop culture thing at the time.

[00:23:32] Adam Cox: And what was Pierce Brosnan's baby's name?

[00:23:34] Kyle Risi: Oh, I can't remember. I think he's got like five kids. I couldn't remember which one it was.

[00:23:38] Adam Cox: Ah,

[00:23:39] Kyle Risi: but he gets really cocky. He uses a 50 50 lifeline. The answer that he thought it was disappears. He decides to just flip an actual pound coin and he just goes with that answer and it's the wrong answer. But playing the foreign versions, can be really risky, especially with those first five supposedly.

[00:23:55] Easy questions. Like they're often very specific to that country. For [00:24:00] example, a question might be, what color is the packaging of walker's? Ready? Salter Crisps.

[00:24:04] The options are red, yellow, blue, and pink. What are you gonna go for?

[00:24:08] Adam Cox: Well, if it's the uk, it's red.

[00:24:09] Kyle Risi: But if you're in the USA, it's yellow.

[00:24:12] Adam Cox: Oh, is it?

[00:24:13] Kyle Risi: Okay. Yeah. So depending on which version you're playing, you can easily be stumbled. By a very easy question where people will probably laugh at you and go, everyone knows that. But the thing is though, you're coming to another country to play who wants to be a millionaire? And you're getting fucked over by one of the simplest questions.

[00:24:28] Adam Cox: Yeah. I didn't realize people would [00:24:30] even be that interested or invested in playing all the other alternative.

[00:24:33] Kyle Risi: These people are hardcore, they become obsessed with getting onto the show.

[00:24:37] And so after appearing on who wants to be a Millionaire, Paddy suddenly finds themself in high demand.

[00:24:42] Every hopeful contestant wants to know how he managed to get on three times, but then also do so well. Mm-hmm. So he recruits a bunch of hardcore quiz enthusiasts he turns his knowledge basically into a business that he calls the consortium.

[00:24:56] They study what the producers are really looking for. [00:25:00] And it turns out that it's not just about being smart. Like we said, they are making good television, right? So part of the service is coaching you on how to sound engaging and confident on that kind of 10 minute phone call

[00:25:13] but part of the service is they also offer to be your phone or friend, which is actually being diverted to their hq. Basically a room full of other quizzes surrounded by encyclopedias and trivia books.

[00:25:25] When you call through, they'll kind of like put you on speakerphone and they'll go, [00:25:30] oh yeah, sorry, I'm so nervous. Let me think. Let me think. And while they're doing that, like someone's like paging through what is

[00:25:36] Adam Cox: the capital of,

[00:25:38] Kyle Risi: Ooh, yeah, don't know this one. And then while someone's like in the room getting the answer, they then write it on a bit of paper and then they go, Ooh, I don't know, it's D. And then they hang up.

[00:25:48] Adam Cox: I mean, that's pretty smart, actually. I can see why this would be useful if you joined this consortium. Do you have to pay a fee?

[00:25:55] Kyle Risi: If you do get onto the show, they take a percentage of any winnings that you get

[00:25:59] Adam Cox: Think [00:26:00] that's fair. If they helped you out on a question.

[00:26:02] Kyle Risi: But the thing is though, this is the service that Diana's brother Adrian eventually comes across, he's not happy with a cut that the consortium want to take. Mm-hmm. And so he just decides to just go to loan.

[00:26:11] Adam Cox: I see. Okay.

[00:26:12] Kyle Risi: But also, paddy claims that 10% of all UK winnings have passed through the consortium's hands. So they have got a lot of people that are very interested in getting onto the show and doing well. Has made a really good business from this.

[00:26:26] Adam Cox: Yeah. Like the ultimate fan clip.

[00:26:28] Kyle Risi: So Adrian, he [00:26:30] goes off all on his own. He tries to piece together everything that he can find about how to get through the qualifying call. One thing he learns is that producers apparently don't want strong regional accents. So if you had, let's say, a thick Welsh accent, your chances were quite slim.

[00:26:46] Which, if true is a massive scandal in itself.

[00:26:50] Adam Cox: Is that purely because they think, oh, people aren't gonna understand these people?

[00:26:53] Kyle Risi: Possibly. But you'd think that they would want more diversity, don't

[00:26:56] Adam Cox: you? Yeah, that's quite narrow minded. But I, maybe this was back in the [00:27:00] nineties or early nineties where

[00:27:01] it was like that.

[00:27:02] Kyle Risi: But the thing is though, tewin wit, he's Welsh, he follows some of the advice that is given by Adrian, and we'll get onto that in a minute. And he manages to get on and I dunno if he actively tried to suppress his Welsh accent. But he, that's when he finally gets onto the show.

[00:27:16] Adam Cox: I see.

[00:27:17] Kyle Risi: But apparently if you come across really well on the call, there is a theory that they'll also throw you really easy questions on the show just to keep you around longer. Some say it's nonsense, but some of them might be true either way. Adrian wants [00:27:30] to maximize his chances, so he takes everything to heart.

[00:27:33] Would you do the same, like if someone says, like, we think this is a theory, would you lean into it? Just in the off chance that it does increase your chances?

[00:27:39] Adam Cox: Probably. Yeah. If someone's telling you this is gonna help you get onto the show

[00:27:43] Kyle Risi: mm-hmm.

[00:27:44] Adam Cox: Then absolutely. And it doesn't surprise me.

[00:27:46] Like at the end of the day, they're making entertainment. They know that someone comes on, they're like, we're gonna have to give away a bit more money this time.

[00:27:53] Kyle Risi: Sure.

[00:27:53] Adam Cox: Therefore, we can be a bit more lenient or whatever on the questions. I think that's what they do.

[00:27:58] Kyle Risi: And the idea is that even [00:28:00] during the show itself, if you come across quite eccentric, they'll start kinda reshuffling the questions to give you easier questions.

[00:28:07] Adam Cox: Interesting.

[00:28:08] Kyle Risi: Now keep that in mind.

[00:28:09] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:28:10] Kyle Risi: Eventually Adrian makes it back onto the show in September, 2000. Once again, his fastest finger time isn't fast enough. So he tries again and gets back on in December. So whatever techniques he's using. Is definitely working.

[00:28:24] Adam Cox: Yeah. I don't realize you could go back on so many times

[00:28:26] Kyle Risi: Yeah. You're not technically considered a contestant until you've been in the hot seat. I [00:28:30] see. Once you've been in the hot seat, you can't apply again.

[00:28:32] this time in December, he nails the fastest finger round in 7.1 seconds, which is quite long. I think he breezes through all the first 10 questions without using a single lifeline. Mm-hmm. But then on the $64,000 question, he is asked

[00:28:44] in the US and Canada Labor Day is celebrated on which month And the options were a May b, July c, September, or D November.

[00:28:56] Adam Cox: May

[00:28:57] Kyle Risi: You think it's May?

[00:28:57] Adam Cox: I think it's May.

[00:28:58] Kyle Risi: He thinks it's may. Actually, [00:29:00] I knew this answer. It's September.

[00:29:02] Adam Cox: Oh, is it? Yeah. I didn't, that's the first one I ruled out straight away. 'cause thinking, oh, it's not September. That's too late in the year.

[00:29:07] Kyle Risi: Well, I get this from friends And I remember there was an episode where Joey is struggling with these feelings for Rachel, and he's going through all the different things that she has taught him Uhhuh. And one of the things was, you never wear white after Labor Day.

[00:29:18] Adam Cox: Oh, it's because that's a summer kind of color.

[00:29:20] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Adam Cox: Oh, I didn't understand the reason for that.

[00:29:23] Kyle Risi: Maybe one of our American listeners can let us know, but basically he doesn't know. He's leaning towards May, just like you said. Mm-hmm. He uses his 50 50, [00:29:30] which leaves May in September, so still unsure. He calls his dad as his phone a friend, and his dad says, I think it's May. And Adrian says, how sure are you? And his dad replies about 50 50.

[00:29:43] Adam Cox: Yeah. I gave you two answers,

[00:29:46] Kyle Risi: which of course gets a massive laugh from the audience. So Adrian locks in May, and of course it's wrong. The answer was C September. And so he walks away with $32,000 .

[00:29:56] But now Diane really wants to get [00:30:00] onto the show, right?

[00:30:00] Adrian, he coaches her through telling her what she needs to say during the calls, and she practices with a fastest finger machine, like 20 minutes a day or whatever. And in March, 2001, just like Adrian, she gets onto the show, but she bombs the fastest finger first.

[00:30:15] Adam Cox: Ah,

[00:30:16] Kyle Risi: the pressure.

[00:30:16] That's the tricky bit, isn't it?

[00:30:17] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:30:18] Kyle Risi: A month later, again, she gets on again. Adrian's techniques are working,

[00:30:23] so just like Adrian, she storms through the first seven questions without using a lifeline at the 8,000 pound question.

[00:30:29] She [00:30:30] uses the ask her audience lifeline and they do her a favor and she gets it right. At the 16,000 pound question, she has to use her phone a friend, which she calls her mate Russell. And again, she gets the correct answer. But just like Adrian, she bombs out on the $64,000 question and ends up walking away with 32,000.

[00:30:47] Adam Cox: That's still not bad though.

[00:30:48] Kyle Risi: It's not bad for a family hobby, right?

[00:30:50] Adam Cox: Yeah,

[00:30:51] Kyle Risi: yeah. All they've done is just master two little areas. Mm-hmm. And then boom, they're on the show and they've walked away with what, 32,000?

[00:30:57] Adam Cox: So her and her brother have both been on the show. I didn't realize she'd been [00:31:00] on the show either.

[00:31:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:31:00] Adam Cox: Okay, so they come away with 64 together and so this is where they then turn to Charles and go, you go on the show this time you're gonna get us a million.

[00:31:07] Kyle Risi: That's right. So she decides that if she can't take the hot seat, she would relive the experience vicariously through her husband Charles. And so she calls up on his behalf.

[00:31:18] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:31:19] Kyle Risi: I dunno how this works, because of course you're speaking to a producer.

[00:31:22] Adam Cox: Does she put on a voice?

[00:31:23] Kyle Risi: She's like, hello, I am Charles, I'd like to be on the show please. Yes, I am a [00:31:30] man. You could ask my wife here she is. Dunno how it worked.

[00:31:34] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:31:35] Kyle Risi: But apparently she applies on his behalf.

[00:31:37] Adam Cox: Right.

[00:31:37] Kyle Risi: Using Adrian's techniques, charles gets through in January, 2001, but again, he fails on the fastest finger first round

[00:31:44] Adam Cox: every time.

[00:31:44] They really

[00:31:45] Kyle Risi: need to practice every time. Yeah. After this, Charles or Diana, they try again this time they get through on a couple special in March of 2001.

[00:31:55] Adam Cox: Oh. So she's allowed to come back for a couple special

[00:31:56] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 'cause it's different. Right.

[00:31:58] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:31:58] Kyle Risi: And again, they fail [00:32:00] fastest finger first round, so they have no issue getting on the show. Mm-hmm. It's just that final round, you know what I mean? Charles starts practicing every day with Adrian's fastest finger machine. 20 minutes a day, apparently. And then finally on the 9th of September, 2001, he gets on again. And this time he nails the fastest finger round.

[00:32:20] The question was, put the following words in the correct order from the title of Agatha Christie's thriller novel. Nile on death there.

[00:32:29] Adam Cox: Death on the Nile.

[00:32:29] Kyle Risi: [00:32:30] Smashed it.

[00:32:30] Adam Cox: Yeah, but I

[00:32:30] Kyle Risi: dunno, the correct order was CBDA death on the Nile.

[00:32:34] Adam Cox: Yeah,

[00:32:35] Kyle Risi: he does it in seconds.

[00:32:37] Adam Cox: I would've B in him. Do you think if I, if I knew where the buttons were,

[00:32:40] Kyle Risi: you have to coordinate what you're thinking and your finger placement for where the buttons are.

[00:32:45] Adam Cox: You know what I mean? Yeah. So I guess they just say A, B, C, D. It's not like they're right there in front of you, I imagine.

[00:32:49] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:32:49] Adam Cox: So you've gotta try and

[00:32:50] Kyle Risi: I think it's a lot harder than we think, probably. Especially if these intelligent people have bombed out so often, right?

[00:32:54] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:55] Kyle Risi: So we're gonna go through each of the questions in turn, and I think this will give us a sense of the coughing [00:33:00] that the prosecution is talking about in the trial.

[00:33:02] Adam Cox: Okay?

[00:33:03] Kyle Risi: There is no coughing for the first five questions. At least

[00:33:06] Adam Cox: they're easy.

[00:33:07] Kyle Risi: Yeah. He breezes through the first five questions. The first question for a hundred pounds was, which of these would you air laundry on? A close dog. B, close horse C, close rabbit D, close pig.

[00:33:21] Adam Cox: Close horse B.

[00:33:23] Kyle Risi: B, that's right. Close horse. Correct. Moves on to question two for 200 pounds.

[00:33:28] What is the name [00:33:30] given to a person who is against the increase in the powers of the European Union?

[00:33:34] Is it a, you're a skeptic? Is it B? You're a star? Is it C? You're a trash. Is it D? You're avision.

[00:33:42] Adam Cox: I don't know.

[00:33:43] Kyle Risi: really, I'm shocked by this, Adam.

[00:33:45] It's, you're a skeptic.

[00:33:46] Adam Cox: Oh, I didn't, I thought that was made up. I, I kind of forgot what the question was, to be honest.

[00:33:49] Kyle Risi: Wow. I had no idea that you would not know that one. But the thing is though, this is a question. I had it scripted here that this is an easy question for UK audience, but if you were like a foreign tourist doing all the [00:34:00] rounds, we are

[00:34:00] Adam Cox: not in the year EU anymore. We are so skeptical. Like we don't have a word for it.

[00:34:04] Kyle Risi: But the thing is though, we were so skeptical that's the reason why we left. So we should have been aware of that term.

[00:34:10] Adam Cox: Yeah. Back in the nineties, I would've been

[00:34:12] Kyle Risi: anyway. He gets it right. He goes through to question three for 300 pounds.

[00:34:17] And the question is, what is butter Scotch? Is it shortbread pavement, garden flowers or brittle toffee.

[00:34:25] Adam Cox: Brittle toffee.

[00:34:27] Kyle Risi: Correct. And he breezes through to [00:34:30] the fourth question for 500 pounds, which of these is a nickname for a famous Scottish army regiment? Is it Black Hat? Black Widow Black Sea or Black Watch.

[00:34:41] Adam Cox: Black Watch,

[00:34:42] Kyle Risi: yes. I think I would've gotten that as well. Just from Game of Thrones.

[00:34:46] Adam Cox: Yeah. I think that's the only way I would've got that,

[00:34:48] Kyle Risi: but he knows this because he's an army man.

[00:34:50] Adam Cox: Of

[00:34:50] Kyle Risi: course. So straight away he honed in on it.

[00:34:52] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:52] Kyle Risi: So Charles moves on to question five for a thousand pounds.

[00:34:56] The question is the Normans who invaded and conquered [00:35:00] England in 10 66 spoke Which language? German, Norwegian, French, or Danish?

[00:35:07] Adam Cox: Norwegian.

[00:35:08] Kyle Risi: Wow. It's actually French.

[00:35:09] Adam Cox: Oh, really?

[00:35:10] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Normans.

[00:35:11] Normandy. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah.

[00:35:15] He locks it in. It is correct. He finally achieves his first guaranteed safety net of a thousand pounds. So if he answers incorrectly, now he leaves with a minimum of a thousand pounds.

[00:35:26] Adam Cox: I wouldn't have even got a thousand pounds.

[00:35:28] Kyle Risi: I think you would've, you [00:35:30] would've used a lifeline. But the point is he hasn't used his lifelines. Mm-hmm. He has breezed through them, but also there's no coughing, at least no coughing on the tape that was handed to the cops.

[00:35:42] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:35:42] Kyle Risi: Next up was question six for 2000 pounds, and the question was Incarnation Street. Who is Audrey's daughter?

[00:35:50] Is it A Janice? B Gail?

[00:35:53] Adam Cox: It's Gail.

[00:35:53] Kyle Risi: DC. Sorry, Linda or d Sally. I

[00:35:57] Adam Cox: told you it's Gail.

[00:35:58] Kyle Risi: Well, he laughs and he [00:36:00] admits that he's never actually seen the show, and so he's actually forced to ask the audience.

[00:36:04] Adam Cox: Ah.

[00:36:05] Kyle Risi: Now they come back with a score of 89% for B Gail Uhhuh, which is what you said.

[00:36:11] would you go to that? I would've

[00:36:12] Adam Cox: gone with that. Yeah.

[00:36:12] Kyle Risi: I think I would've. 89 is quite high, right? Mm-hmm. 11% of people didn't know that answer to fair. I didn't know either until after I heard the answer and I was like, oh, of course it's Gail. So he locks in B Gail, and it is correct, but he's now one lifeline down, which you could say at this [00:36:30] stage on the 2000 pound question, producers might be thinking that we're not looking at in a millionaire. Do you know what I mean?

[00:36:35] Adam Cox: Yeah. You'd You'd expect

[00:36:37] Kyle Risi: that him to be a lot further along before he starts using his lifelines. Right? Yeah. Like that John Carpenter guy from the USA who doesn't use any of his lifelines, he just breezes through them all.

[00:36:46] Adam Cox: Yeah. It sounds like he could be getting like 32,000.

[00:36:50] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. So question seven, for 4,000 pounds, Charles has asked, the river foil is found. In which parts of the United Kingdom? Is it England, [00:37:00] Scotland, Northern Ireland, or Wales?

[00:37:03] Adam Cox: I have no idea.

[00:37:03] Kyle Risi: I don't know this one. England. I would've used a lifeline again, he's unsure and now he decides to use his phone, a friend lifeline, so two lifelines down now.

[00:37:12] Adam Cox: Okay. Right.

[00:37:13] Kyle Risi: He calls Gerald who says he's 99% sure it's Northern Ireland. Charles is completely convinced by that. He locks it in and again is correct. Boom.

[00:37:22] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:37:22] Kyle Risi: At this point he's at the 4,000 pound question. The buzzer goes off. Do you remember what that means?

[00:37:29] Adam Cox: That [00:37:30] means it's, uh, that's the end of the show.

[00:37:32] Kyle Risi: It's the end of the show. So basically that means that he has to return tomorrow night.

[00:37:36] Uhhuh. So Chris Tarren, he wraps up the show and announces the names of the contestant that will will be Appearing in the next episode. These are the people that will be in the fastest finger first pit. Right?

[00:37:45] Adam Cox: Gotcha.

[00:37:45] Kyle Risi: Amongst those names, Chris Tart reads out the name of a man called Tewin Ock, who is a university lecturer from Wales. Hearing Teinen's name Piques Diana's interest because she knows [00:38:00] him. Mm-hmm. From the quizzing community. In fact, Adrian, her brother had actually mentored him personally.

[00:38:06] Adam Cox: I see.

[00:38:06] Kyle Risi: So apparently Tewin had noticed that Adrian had appeared on the show so many times. So he decided to reach out to him to ask him how it was done. Adrian, obviously being flattered by the attention agrees to be his mentor. And this is remember Tewin is Welsh, right? Mm-hmm. So one of the bits of advice was like, you gotta

[00:38:22] Adam Cox: be less Welsh.

[00:38:23] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And so after Diana hears TE's name, she calls him that night. And according to phone records, there's a phone call [00:38:30] that lasts five minutes, which will become one of the key pieces of circumstantial evidence in the eventual trial.

[00:38:36] Adam Cox: So are the prosecution saying that this was the phone call that she had asked Tewin to help out her husband because he's already used two lifelines. He's not gonna make it that far. We need some help.

[00:38:46] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[00:38:47] Prosecutors will later argue that this is the moment that the three of them colluded to come up with the infamous coughing system, where Charles would read out the questions and possible answers, and Quinn would then discreetly cough on the correct [00:39:00] one.

[00:39:00] Diana insists, however, that he's my brother's friend. I called him up to congratulate him for getting onto the show. We are a tight knit community and I knew him enough to give him a call.

[00:39:11] Adam Cox: For five minutes. It doesn't feel like you could do that sort of plot that quickly.

[00:39:16] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:39:16] Adam Cox: Unless you'd be like, Hey, I'm on the show. Oh, your husband's on. He is not doing well. Do you want me to cough next time? He's, on the right answer and she'd be like, yeah, that'd be great. Okay.

[00:39:24] Kyle Risi: Exactly. It's not, to me, it's not plausible. And so the stage is set. Adam, and this is the question that we are going to try and answer [00:39:30] from here on in. Were they innocent or was this the very start of a coughing scandal?

[00:39:36] Adam Cox: I think it's a coughing scandal.

[00:39:38] Kyle Risi: So Charles returns the following night. At this point, he's on question eight for 8,000 pounds. And he's used up all but one of his lifelines and it's not even the best one.

[00:39:47] He's left with a 50 50.

[00:39:49] Adam Cox: I think that is the best one.

[00:39:50] Kyle Risi: I just like disagree. No, but basically producers, they're just not expecting him to last much longer, right? Mm-hmm. It's the very beginning of the show. They reckon he'll be out into [00:40:00] questions

[00:40:00] Adam Cox: and so Charles isn't actually, he's not an avid quiz person, is,

[00:40:03] Kyle Risi: he's not an aquiz person, but he is intelligent.

[00:40:06] Adam Cox: Okay?

[00:40:07] Kyle Risi: So they get to the studio that day. The prosecution will later argue. Isn't it strange that you knew Tewin well enough to call him up the previous night to congratulate him, and yet at the studio, neither of you acknowledge each other in any way.

[00:40:21] Adam Cox: Okay?

[00:40:22] Kyle Risi: They say that's the actions of someone who didn't want to draw attention to the fact that they knew each other. But the arguments against that is simple, Adam. They were [00:40:30] both just focused on getting their heads in the game.

[00:40:32] Diana was there supporting a husband in a very tense situation. He's only on question eight for 8,000 pounds, a's got one lifeline. And Quin, he's anxious about not getting through to the hot seat. So I personally, I get it. I get why you probably wouldn't. But also what were they expecting her to do? Like be in this studio audience going, Quin, it's me, Diana. Do you know what I mean?

[00:40:54] Adam Cox: Maybe just like a wave. Oh, hi.

[00:40:56] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And they probably did acknowledge each other in some way. It [00:41:00] just, this wasn't what was caught on camera.

[00:41:01] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:41:02] Kyle Risi: So at the start of the show, there's the usual icebreaker stuff. Charles tells Chris that he has a new strategy and also a sub strategy. So he's got two strategies. This ends up becoming basically a running joke between them throughout the episode. Chris will be like, so what strategy are we working with here?

[00:41:15] We working with a strategy or we working with the sub strategy?

[00:41:18] Adam Cox: Well, the sub strategy is tech went over there coughing.

[00:41:20] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. So Charles explains that the reason that he's changing up his strategy is because he didn't believe in himself last night. And so he wanted to believe himself a bit more because [00:41:30] he says that if he had, he would've done a lot better last night and he wouldn't have waited two lifelines.

[00:41:35] And so he says This time, his approach is to read each question carefully. To think each option through out loud, and then just trust his instincts.

[00:41:43] Adam Cox: But it does also sound like this is him explaining why he's gonna be approaching it differently in this night or this episode. And so that's why he, yeah. I'm assuming in the first episode he's not reading those questions out loud back to him, but he is this time listening out for a cough or that's what they [00:42:00] think

[00:42:00] Kyle Risi: to me, it's also a stupid thing to do because if you were planning on cheating, you've just announced to everyone what your MO is, what your plan is.

[00:42:07] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:08] Kyle Risi: So I think that's dumb. And I think that if you were gonna cheat, you wouldn't have done that. You would just kept that to yourself.

[00:42:12] Adam Cox: Yeah. Okay.

[00:42:13] Kyle Risi: So let's start with question eight for 8,000 pounds, Chris asks, who was the second husband of Jacqueline Kennedy? Was it a, I can't pronounce any of these words.

[00:42:23] Adnan, Khashoggi B Ronald Reagan, C Aristotle, Onassis, or [00:42:30] D Rupert Murdoch. Do you know it?

[00:42:32] Adam Cox: No.

[00:42:32] Kyle Risi: Charles sticks to his plan. He says, I know it wasn't Ronald Reagan. It wasn't Murdoch. I think it was Aristotle or

[00:42:40] Adam Cox: NASAs. That was what I thought, if I was gonna have a hazard, a guess.

[00:42:43] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I definitely knew it was Onassis. So he repeats the name Aristotle Onassis, and on the tape, a coffers herd. And then Charles says, I think it's Aristotle analysis. now there is a cough. It's not immediate. That's the important thing to mention here. [00:43:00] Remember he's taking his time. There's no clock ticking.

[00:43:03] A few seconds passes before you hear this cough. And remember, with 200 people in the audience, there's gonna be sounds that are gonna be picked up. Mm-hmm. So you have to wonder, did the production team just pick the cough that was closest in proximity to when he answered the correct answer?

[00:43:19] Adam Cox: Or can they tell where the cough came from at point?

[00:43:21] Kyle Risi: Apparently they say that this was picked up from a microphone above the, fastest finger first pit.

[00:43:26] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:43:26] Kyle Risi: But the reality is, if it was, let's say, just a. A shallow [00:43:30] cough, like a if you are far away, that's not gonna be picked up. But if you're far away and you have like a cough, like it'll be picked up, right?

[00:43:37] Mm-hmm. So there's no way of knowing how far that person away from the fastest finger pit is. It could have been someone that was like four rows back allowed cough and therefore picks up on that microphone.

[00:43:47] Adam Cox: Yeah. And I guess they've got no footage of tegu coughing?

[00:43:50] Kyle Risi: Zero footage whatsoever.

[00:43:52] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:43:53] Kyle Risi: So I just think like at this moment in time, they're setting out to prove something suspicious was going on because they get turned [00:44:00] onto that later on. And so they look for any coughs in that vicinity and they amplify them.

[00:44:03] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:04] Kyle Risi: Basically. And we don't even know if they've done it with integrity either. There's just no way of knowing

[00:44:08] Adam Cox: I feel like if I was them, they probably picked up some coughs that sounded dodgy.

[00:44:14] But then they used other coughs to just reinforce

[00:44:17] Kyle Risi: Possibly.

[00:44:18] Yeah. And this isn't even one of the incriminating coughs. I would say this is more of a supporting cough.

[00:44:23] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:23] Kyle Risi: It could have come from anywhere in that area. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? I'm just saying, so Charles locks in Aristotle, Anis. He [00:44:30] is right. He moves on to question nine for 16,000 pounds.

[00:44:33] And the question is, Ental is achieved from which country? Do you know it?

[00:44:38] Adam Cox: No,

[00:44:39] Kyle Risi: France, Italy, the Netherlands or Switzerland.

[00:44:43] Adam Cox: I'm gonna go to Switzerland.

[00:44:44] Kyle Risi: You would be correct. I think so. He does think out loud during this question. He says, I've had the, she's a lot, I think it's Switzerland. I'm trying to picture it. Does it say made in Switzerland on it? Like he sounds a bit uncertain this time. There are no [00:45:00] coughs, right? Which, if the theory is true, might suggest. The tech would himself doesn't know the answer.

[00:45:04] Okay. Because we didn't factor for that. Right.

[00:45:06] Adam Cox: Yeah,

[00:45:06] Kyle Risi: that's true. And what happens in those situations In the end, Charles Lock Switzerland and it is correct.

[00:45:12] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:45:14] Kyle Risi: So he moves on to question 10 for 32,000 pounds. Which is the second safety net question. And the question is, who had a UK hit album with Born to Do it released in the year 2000?

[00:45:26] Adam Cox: God, I probably would've known this at the time.

[00:45:28] Kyle Risi: The answers are [00:45:30] A Coplay B, top loader, C, A one, or D Craig. David.

[00:45:37] Adam Cox: I feel like it's gotta be a one. Or Craig David.

[00:45:40] Kyle Risi: That's exactly what he believes. So the answer is Craig David, and it's important to know the answer ahead of what happens next.

[00:45:47] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:45:48] Kyle Risi: Charles jokes and he says, top loader. That's part of a rifle, isn't it? So it's probably not that. Remember he's an Army man, so I see where the logic is coming from. It's totally wrong because they are also a band. He then says, [00:46:00] I'm thinking it's a one and I've got an inkling. It's a one. I've actually never heard of Craig David. Crazy. Right?

[00:46:07] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:46:08] Kyle Risi: At this point, there are no coughs, again, maybe suggesting that Tewin doesn't know what the answer is. at that moment, the cameras catch Diana. Glancing down towards the fastest finger pit, right?

[00:46:20] Adam Cox: Oh yeah. That's it.

[00:46:20] Kyle Risi: Which prosecutors argue that she's looking to tewin like saying, why are you not signaling? Right? It's like,

[00:46:26] Adam Cox: come on, Tegu cough.

[00:46:27] Kyle Risi: Exactly. But still no coughs come. [00:46:30] Charles then uses his last lifeline, which is the 50 50 lifeline, which leaves him with C and D, which is A one, and Craig, David.

[00:46:37] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:38] Kyle Risi: He's then says again, 'cause remember, he's never heard of Craig David, right? I think is a one. A few minutes later, Diana coughs a few times.

[00:46:46] Adam Cox: Oh,

[00:46:47] Kyle Risi: so fucking fake. She's like, she grabs her throat a little bit. I don't know. The prosecution claimed that because Tewin didn't know the answer. Diana stepped [00:47:00] into try and signal instead. But when you actually watch the footage, it isn't that clear. Her coughs are really spaced out like the coughs look fake, but they're not associated with any of the answers that he's saying or when he's saying them.

[00:47:11] Adam Cox: Maybe it's just a cough to say you are wrong, and it doesn't necessarily matter. It's just if you hear coughing. Think again.

[00:47:18] Kyle Risi: Rather than signaling the right answer, she's you're honing in on the wrong question. Yeah. Think

[00:47:22] Adam Cox: again,

[00:47:23] Kyle Risi: that's, it's tricky. It's so difficult to know. The coughing looks really suspicious because of how she's coughing, but it's not aligning [00:47:30] up with the system that they supposedly have.

[00:47:32] Adam Cox: I think if it's a single cough, it's that answer.

[00:47:34] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:34] Adam Cox: If it's multiple coughs and he's on something, change it.

[00:47:37] Kyle Risi: You can't change up the formula at this point.

[00:47:40] Adam Cox: This is what they discussed in those five minutes.

[00:47:42] Kyle Risi: No, it's not. I promise you it's not. Can't be. Anyway. The prosecution will claim that because Taek one didn't know the answer. Diana had stepped in to signal instead. But the suspicious thing here is that after being sure that it was a one, he does suddenly change his mind and says.

[00:47:57] I think it's Craig David.

[00:47:58] Adam Cox: Why? What reason does [00:48:00] he say that given that he said he's never heard of him?

[00:48:02] Kyle Risi: apparently. In court says the moment that he said that he was gonna go with a one, he hears the audience gasp, which makes him second guess himself. And therefore he switched to Craig David.

[00:48:13] Adam Cox: Ah,

[00:48:14] Kyle Risi: now that sort of thing. I can get how it happens. It does happen, right? When they've interviewed loads of people who've been on the audience, they're like, people sometimes in the audience will like lean to the person next to go. Do you know the answer to this one? Yeah. They'll be like, oh, I know the answer. Or like, no, that's the wrong answer. [00:48:30] And people will gasp and people will react. So I get how that would happen. That's plausible to me.

[00:48:34] Adam Cox: And so this is his rationale and explanation for why he changes answer.

[00:48:38] Kyle Risi: .Correct? That's what he is saying.

[00:48:40] So he says, Chris, I think it's Greg David. He immediately tells Chris to lock it in. It is correct. And so the coughs aren't that suspicious here, but it is a complete 180 turn for no obvious reason that ends up raising eyebrows, especially potentially backstage with the production, right?

[00:48:56] Mm-hmm. This might be one of the first seeds that they go, Hmm,

[00:48:59] Adam Cox: seems a bit odd.

[00:48:59] Kyle Risi: Something's, [00:49:00] something's weird here. Why did he just completely 180 change? He is saying it's because of the gasp.

[00:49:04] But here's also the important thing on the official tape. You don't actually hear any gasp, and that's not to say that it didn't happen. It's just that it's another example of how the tape was selectively enhanced to amplify certain sounds. if the production team had amplified that gasp, would it have planted a seed of reasonable doubt about his guilt?

[00:49:23] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:24] Kyle Risi: By them muting it, we don't see that. All we see is a guy who's just changed his mind randomly.

[00:49:28] The prosecution also said [00:49:30] that before Diana coughed, she had glanced up at the studio monitors to check when the live feed wasn't on her.

[00:49:36] they claimed that she believed that this meant she wasn't being recorded therefore allowing her to cough, which is not true.

[00:49:43] Adam Cox: She's always been recorded.

[00:49:44] Kyle Risi: She's always been recorded. Yeah. Yeah. Diana says, actually, I was looking up at the monitors because I was sitting behind Charles, It's the only way that I could see his face. She wanted to see his expression. She wanted to see what he was thinking, right? Mm-hmm. And I totally get that.

[00:49:57] Like I do the same thing, like she [00:50:00] loves his face, she wants to see his face, she wants to see what he's thinking about. So I get that. So I don't really buy. Mm-hmm. That she was trying to time her coughs.

[00:50:06] Anyway, Charles now has secure 32,000 pounds. He has no lifelines left, which is like a big thing, but he is now moving on to question 11, which is the $64,000 question, which is basically like a free swing,

[00:50:19] Adam Cox: yeah.

[00:50:20] Kyle Risi: The question is, gentlemen versus players was the annual match between amateurs and professionals, of which sports, laulau, tennis, rugby, union polo, or [00:50:30] cricket?

[00:50:30] Adam Cox: It feels very well to do maybe lawn tennis or polo.

[00:50:34] Kyle Risi: So Charles thinks for a second and says it could be any of them, but I think it's cricket.

[00:50:40] Adam Cox: Oh,

[00:50:40] Kyle Risi: right after he says that there is a cough, he then reads through the options again.

[00:50:46] Lawn tennis, rugby union polo, cricket, another cough. He then locks it in and it is correct. And so far this is the clearest example of a cough seeming to line up with a correct [00:51:00] answer. I see 11 questions in, right? Mm-hmm. So really this is the the first proper example.

[00:51:04] So he's now on question 12 for 125,000 pounds. The question is, the ambassadors in the National Gallery is a painting by which artist? Van, Ike, Holbein, Michelangelo, or Rembrandt, I dunno. This one.

[00:51:21] Adam Cox: Rembrandt.

[00:51:22] Kyle Risi: Charles tells Chris that he's actually been to the National Gallery and he's seen the ambassadors and he thinks it's [00:51:30] Holbein.

[00:51:30] Adam Cox: Oh,

[00:51:30] Kyle Risi: When he says that there's a couple coughs that follow, they're subtle. But the prosecution argues that because he had honed in straight away on this answer, he seemed quite confident with it. It was just like

[00:51:43] Adam Cox: reinforcing.

[00:51:44] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Like you've got it right. You don't really need my help on this. Okay. Kind of thing. And so he locks in whole bind and again, it's Correct.

[00:51:50] So he is now on question 13 for 250,000 pounds. And the question was what type of garment is an Anthony [00:52:00] Eden? Is it an overcoat, a hat, a shoe, or a tie?

[00:52:04] Adam Cox: I have no idea.

[00:52:06] Kyle Risi: I had no idea either. But Charles immediately leans towards hat, a couple costs follow as well. Again, very subtle. Again, probably for the same reason as before, because of course he's already honed in on to that question and it's just kinda like, yeah, you've got it. Right.

[00:52:20] Adam Cox: Okay. So he's actually doing pretty well at this point, whereas before he is a little bit rubbish.

[00:52:24] Kyle Risi: Yes, that's right. So he locks it in and again, it is correct. And so that brings him to question [00:52:30] 14 for 500,000 pounds.

[00:52:32] Adam Cox: Wow.

[00:52:33] Kyle Risi: The question is, Barron Houseman is best known for his planning Of which city is it?

[00:52:38] Rome Paris, Berlin, or Athens? No idea. I have no idea either. Yeah. And so Charles goes straight for Berlin, he says, I think it's Berlin. And he says it really confidently, right? Mm-hmm. But then apparently the audience gasps. I didn't hear this on the tape, so again, just like with the A one question, he waves a little bit and he repeats himself a little [00:53:00] bit less sure this time. But he says, I think, I think it's Berlin Houseman sounds more like a German name, which is why I think it's Berlin.

[00:53:09] Okay.

[00:53:09] But what's different about this question is that if this is a system is supposed to go through all the other answers to the question, Mm-hmm. especially if he is in doubt. Mm-hmm. And he hasn't done that.

[00:53:20] He says, I think his houseman because Houseman sounds more German than Italian. Or Parisian. Or Athenian, essentially. Yeah,

[00:53:26] Adam Cox: that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:53:28] Kyle Risi: Then after repeating [00:53:30] again, I think it's Berlin, there is a cough.

[00:53:33] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:34] Kyle Risi: This one, however weirdly sounds like someone saying the word no.

[00:53:39] Adam Cox: Uh uh. Oh.

[00:53:40] Kyle Risi: So it's like.

[00:53:41] No.

[00:53:41] Adam Cox: And does it sound like that on the tape?

[00:53:46] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[00:53:46] Adam Cox: Oh

[00:53:47] Kyle Risi: yeah. Yeah. The prosecution argued that because Charles had gone off script, tewin had to improvise because he was like, no, go through the fucking answers, bitch. He doesn't do that. So he's forced in the end to go, no, and that just basically pulls it back on track.

[00:53:59] Adam Cox: [00:54:00] Oh. Meanwhile, backstage in the control room, the production team are now watching all of this unfold and they're going, okay, we suspect there's something weird is happening in a couple questions before, but now, something really fucked up is happening.

[00:54:10] Kyle Risi: Chris, however, is blissfully unaware. He doesn't typically wear it earpiece, so he has no idea that all of this is folding backstage.

[00:54:17] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:18] Kyle Risi: The defense will later argue that this is where basically everything goes wrong, not for Charles, but for the production team. The second, the first suspicion crept in, everything else just seems to [00:54:30] confirm everything that they already were starting to believe Basically, they fell victim to confirmation bias and in court audience members and the other contestants, they will later say yeah, while I was in the studio, I felt like something strange was happening. But honestly, I don't buy that. I just think it's kinda like hindsight talking.

[00:54:46] Do you know what I mean? Where they go? Uh, yeah. I, I knew something was up, but I didn't think they did because Chris Tart didn't,

[00:54:52] Adam Cox: they probably just thought of, this is odd, but maybe in terms of changing his answers and stuff like that, maybe. And how is he getting away or how is he doing so well now? But [00:55:00] maybe not thinking that he's cheating, just thinking that it was a bit odd.

[00:55:02] Kyle Risi: I would get if Chris Tart picks something up mm-hmm. Because he's there all the time. He's so relaxed it, and I can get why the, production team picked something up. But at the same time, I also think that something unusual happened and then what they started to do is they started to coincide everything else that happened after that with the fact that someone was cheating.

[00:55:19] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:20] Kyle Risi: But also we don't know if Charles actually hears the no cough, but he pauses. He rethinks his options and he says, I don't think it's Paris. Immediately there's a cough. He then continues, he says, I don't [00:55:30] think it's Athens, and I'm sure it's not Rome.

[00:55:32] He then backtracks, he says, I thought it was Berlin, but there is a chance that it's Paris. There's no cough Right after Paris, he then hesitates, he says it again, I think it's Berlin. I think it's Paris. There's a cough. So he looks up at Chris Terrance and he says, I think it's Paris. And then immediately another cough comes after that and he's like, yep, I'm gonna say Paris.

[00:55:56] Lock it in and it's right. And he's just won half a million pounds. [00:56:00]

[00:56:00] Adam Cox: That seems dodgy to say or to be able to cough every time he says Paris, that does feel suspicious. and even if you go into this with some kind of, plan.

[00:56:08] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:08] Adam Cox: I dunno if you would do that,

[00:56:10] Kyle Risi: I mean this is by far probably the most incriminating question,

[00:56:13] Adam Cox: Yeah. Because he initially said oh, he show us German and now he's completely backtracked. And then we've had the incident with Craig David question. No coughing on that one.

[00:56:21] Kyle Risi: Other than from Diane.

[00:56:22] Adam Cox: Yeah. But there's two questions now where it does seem a bit suss

[00:56:25] Kyle Risi: at this point, the pattern of coughing and the sudden change of heart is too [00:56:30] much for people to ignore. Really, even for me, like it does seem very suspicious. But backstage, everyone is now tuned in and they can all feel that something is happening.

[00:56:39] Charles, however, is now on question 15 for 1 million pounds. And to show you how odd this one is, it is worth remembering that as well as being an army man, Charles is also a qualified engineer, who spent part of his career fixing computers and laptops. The question is, a number followed by 100 [00:57:00] zeros is known by, what name Is it? A Google, A Megatron, A gigabit or an anum.

[00:57:09] Adam Cox: A number followed by a hundred zeros? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even, I don't know, A giga. A Megatron

[00:57:14] Kyle Risi: Megatron. A

[00:57:15] Adam Cox: giga. Megatron.

[00:57:16] Kyle Risi: So straight away he says, I think it's anum, but it could also be gigabits. I don't think it's Megatron and I've never heard of a Google.

[00:57:24] Adam Cox: Oh God. It's a Google, isn't it?

[00:57:25] Kyle Risi: It's a Google.

[00:57:26] Yeah. He says Google again, straight away there is a [00:57:30] cough. He immediately changes track by process of elimination. He says, I think it's actually a Google.

[00:57:37] He then laughs. But then he says, but I don't know what a Google is. He then loops through the options again. He says, I don't think it's a gigabit. I don't think it's an anum. I don't think it's a megatron.

[00:57:49] I really do think it's a Google cough.

[00:57:51] Adam Cox: But if you don't know what it is, why would you think that? Exactly. Unless you can say, I know a anum is this, and I know a soandso is this. And [00:58:00] therefore it leaves me with this, which I don't really know about.

[00:58:02] But he, I feel like he made the mistake of ruling it out straight away if he hadn't have done that and just gone through the answers.

[00:58:08] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:58:09] Adam Cox: Maybe he would've seemed less suspicious. But I feel like, yeah. How can you believe that this, this feels dodgy to me.

[00:58:15] Kyle Risi: It does. Now again, he pauses. He repeats the list, and then he says Google again. There's another cough. He then tells Chris Tarrant that he's ruled out the others. He admits that he has no clue what a Google is, but he says it's the only one left in his mind that [00:58:30] it could be.

[00:58:30] And so he asked him to lock it in with that. Charles wins a million dollars.

[00:58:36] Adam Cox: Just like that.

[00:58:37] I think the thing is though, this must be so unusual, I can understand why production would be looking at him strangely, because he used up a lot of his lifelines. Mm-hmm. He wasn't that strong. And to go through 10 of the hardest questions.

[00:58:50] Like this.

[00:58:51] On a bit of a whim.

[00:58:52] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I don't know. now actually going through the questions with you, there's a part of me that goes, oh, I'm now not really that sure anymore.

[00:58:59] Adam Cox: [00:59:00] Something's a bit suspect.

[00:59:00] Kyle Risi: Maybe that changes what I'd like to say next. I dunno.

[00:59:03] Adam Cox: But what had you planned to say about this?

[00:59:05] Kyle Risi: That he's innocence and I'm convinced he's innocent.

[00:59:07] Adam Cox: Okay. So why do you think he's innocent?

[00:59:09] Kyle Risi: Let's go through it.

[00:59:10] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:59:10] Kyle Risi: The studio explodes applause and cheers. There's confetti raining down. Chris Tarrant beams as he normally does. And he says to him like, you have been the most remarkable contestants we've ever had. Your strategies have been baffling, but they've worked. And then he gives him his check for a million pounds.

[00:59:26] Adam Cox: It's 'cause he's been cheating Chris.

[00:59:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah, he hands Charles his check. It's an [00:59:30] actual paper check And I did write down here that after watching the actual tape itself, it's hard to say whether or not the coughs were deliberate. Like the gaps between some of them make it really difficult to tell. remember with 200 people in the audience, there are bound to be coughs and shuffles and weird noises. But still those last two questions, the Houseman and the Google one. They are suspicious though, aren't they?

[00:59:52] Adam Cox: He coughed a no. Or someone did.

[00:59:54] Kyle Risi: He did cough a no. It's very hard to deny, especially [01:00:00] when paired with his habit of flipping kind of answers at the last second.

[01:00:03] Now, Charles later says that after hearing about Adrian's theory, that producers preferred interesting contestants, he was trying to be more dramatic on purpose. For instance, acting uncertain would give producers better television.

[01:00:19] Adam Cox: I see. Okay.

[01:00:20] Kyle Risi: Remember, he's playing under the belief that if you are entertaining, you might get easier questions as the episode progresses,

[01:00:28] Adam Cox: but I don't feel like they're [01:00:30] easier questions.

[01:00:31] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Maybe to him.

[01:00:33] They are. But at the same time, here's where I think that kind of falls flat. You're on the very last question. What's the point in fucking around?

[01:00:39] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly.

[01:00:40] Kyle Risi: Like I've now got my million. I don't need to be entertaining. So you give me a next question that's easier.

[01:00:44] Adam Cox: Yes, I agree with that.

[01:00:46] Kyle Risi: So it's a stretch in my opinion, but still with a million quid on the line. Would you really gamble on being performative for the producers? I don't think I would. I wouldn't gamble. I would, I would be as eccentric as possible.

[01:00:58] Adam Cox: That's probably why you're not allowed on. [01:01:00] Yeah,

[01:01:01] Kyle Risi: I haven't tried. Have you been applying on my behalf? Hello, I'm Kyle. I want to be on show please.

[01:01:07] Adam Cox: But I don't know if they had quit at like 250,000, for example. I wonder if they would've got away with it 'cause at no coffee. Yeah. Probably just feels the one that's just too suspicious.

[01:01:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah, it does sound very suspicious.

[01:01:19] So Charles and Diana, they head back to the hotel probably to have sex on their check. Not quite as satisfying as actual cash, but like you've gotta work with what you've got.

[01:01:28] Right. Meanwhile, [01:01:30] the production team are running around like headless chickens. They are trying to figure out what the hell they've just witnessed and they believe that they have just seen a televised heist unfold on national television.

[01:01:43] The producers, they basically call a crisis meeting, and in the end they all agree that something strange has definitely happened. And so they quietly place a stop on the check and they immediately call the police.

[01:01:54] The next day. Of course, as we know, is September the 11th, 2001. Mm-hmm. Everything that [01:02:00] follows is of course overshadowed by what happened in New York, but that morning Charles gets a call from a millionaire executive telling him that they've noticed some irregularities during filming and that they've put in a stop on the check.

[01:02:15] Adam Cox: And what does Charles say to this? Charles immediately says, and this will be very much in questioning court, I would most certainly deny that. Like he may as well have said what? There was no coughing.

[01:02:26] Yeah.

[01:02:27] Kyle Risi: Do you know what I mean?

[01:02:27] Adam Cox: He might have just said, oh, what do you mean? Or

[01:02:29] Kyle Risi: find

[01:02:29] Adam Cox: [01:02:30] out

[01:02:30] Kyle Risi: Yeah. What Alleg irregularities.

[01:02:31] Adam Cox: Yeah. So that feels like if that was his first response that does seem mod.

[01:02:35] Kyle Risi: When he does eventually find out, of course he does deny everything. But on that call, he doesn't say, what are you talking about?

[01:02:40] Adam Cox: Yeah,

[01:02:40] Kyle Risi: that's my money. I want it fair and square. He doesn't say that. Meanwhile, cell door, the production company, they start combing through the footage. They isolate a total of 19 coughs in total that they claim lineup. Exactly. With Charles saying? Or settling on a correct answer basically.

[01:02:56] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:57] Kyle Risi: It's not long before the media run with his story. [01:03:00] Initially they were just keen to know who this million pound winner was. But what piques their interest is that when Cell door refused to kinda share any details, this only spurs the press on who then start believing that actually, there's been a millionaire winner. Why they're not telling us the details. Is there a bigger story here?

[01:03:16] And so eventually Cellar Door is forced to issue a statement hinting that they suspect foul play.

[01:03:22] Within days, buried beneath the front pages of the nine 11 coverage is the story [01:03:30] about the coughing major and how he cheated during Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

[01:03:34] Adam Cox: How long did it take them to arrest them or how long was the investigation?

[01:03:38] Kyle Risi: Well, the thing is though, the trial went off for two years.

[01:03:41] Adam Cox: Okay. That's a long time afterwards.

[01:03:42] Kyle Risi: But after they call the cops, they are quickly arrested, and they're all charged with fraud and this is where things start to get really messy as we head into the trial.

[01:03:51] First, the price, money itself typically at the time is split 50 50 between ITV and sell. All and remember, there've only been seven winners [01:04:00] in the UK across 25 years. Three of those were between the year 2000 and the year 2001. That's a lot of million pound payout in such a short space of time,

[01:04:12] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:13] Kyle Risi: Did they maybe need an excuse to not have to hand over another million pound price?

[01:04:18] Adam Cox: I understand that, and that's a good angle. But then would they tear down a single person? Just to save out on that cash? at the end of the day, they are big corporations.

[01:04:29] And they [01:04:30] just need to go. We need to make the questions harder.

[01:04:31] Kyle Risi: Possibly, but keep that in mind anyway.

[01:04:33] Second is the tape itself, the one that was used as evidence in court, which takes them over a year to be finally submitted and it's labeled Adam version six. So why so long to submit it and why so many versions.

[01:04:47] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:47] Kyle Risi: Maybe they just wanted to make the coffee and clearer for the jury. Fair enough. But those 19 questionable coughs, they weren't visible in the footage. You only hear them. They supposedly came from the area near where [01:05:00] Tewin was sitting, and obviously you ran where Diana was.

[01:05:02] 'cause we did catch her coughs on camera, but no one can see anyone coughing. So I'm not sure how you can prove those coughs didn't travel from further away in the studio. Given how sound can carry sometimes. what version six doesn't show is that when you amplify all the coughs across the studio, there were 192 coughs. Across the entire episode.

[01:05:24] Adam Cox: So people were coughing the whole time.

[01:05:26] Kyle Risi: People were nonstop fucking coughing. So it is [01:05:30] 19 out of 192 coughs. That's 10%. So what are the chances that those 19 coughs could have just been mere coincidences?

[01:05:38] Adam Cox: This is where I think there's a few coughs which have caused suspicion, and that's what they've looked into. And then they're potentially enhancing or using other coughs just to make their case stronger.

[01:05:50] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Supporting coughs, as I said.

[01:05:51] Adam Cox: Yeah. So that's what I think's probably happened. Mm-hmm. Because they think maybe one or two is just not enough to get him on this. And so they're [01:06:00] trying to basically build their case. So regardless of how many costs, if there's just one or two, Then that's enough.

[01:06:04] Kyle Risi: That's exactly, I think cell door, as you just said, possibly knew that the jury might conclude. It was all just a coincidence. And so they deliberately enhance only the cuffs that presented a pattern that supported a, the main coughs, but also on the other questions, to reinforce this idea that they were cheating.

[01:06:22] But the point is they weren't transparent about all the coughs that were picked up or heard in the studio audience. The defense had to [01:06:30] physically request that information. Otherwise they were happy to just submit that tape with the 19 coughs, making you believe that all the other coughs that they had muted the other 90% just didn't happen.

[01:06:40] Adam Cox: Okay, so slightly misleading.

[01:06:42] Kyle Risi: It's very misleading. And so the trial starts in March, 2003.

[01:06:47] When Charles takes a stand, the prosecution goes straight for the jugular. They wanna know about the costs labeled 12 to 14 on that tape. To them, they of course, are the most incriminating.

[01:06:57] Cough 12, as we know, is the big one, [01:07:00] the one that supposedly sounds like someone saying no,

[01:07:03] Adam Cox: Do you think they meant to do No. As a cough, but then we're like, oh, I did it wrong.

[01:07:08] And it said no afterwards because it, it sounds, like that is dodgy.

[01:07:12] Kyle Risi: We've actually listed the entire episode in the show notes, so fish that out and let us know what you think. And remember, audience members are talking all the time. People have attested to the fact like they'll lean over to the person next yeah. And be like, do you know the answers to this? I know the answer. Which

[01:07:26] Adam Cox: is the thing D, they can't like pin it on te when can they? [01:07:30] They can't say for certain it came from him.

[01:07:32] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:07:33] Adam Cox: So could an audience member just gone, no, don't do that sort of thing.

[01:07:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And apparently it happens all the time.

[01:07:38] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:07:38] Kyle Risi: And he may not have heard it, but remember they've amplified that sound.

[01:07:42] Adam Cox: I also wonder how much you could actually hear in the studio when you're sitting in that seat.

[01:07:46] Kyle Risi: Chris Terran said he heard nothing.

[01:07:48] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:07:49] Kyle Risi: So if he heard nothing and he was sitting right next to Charles, does that mean that Charles also potentially didn't hear anything But then maybe Charles is honed in on listening for the cops.

[01:07:59] Adam Cox: Yeah. [01:08:00] Do they add the music when you're playing as well? That background music?

[01:08:03] Kyle Risi: I think so,

[01:08:04] Adam Cox: yes. Is that after in post? Because that's the thing, like if that's playing, I dunno if you'd actually be able to like pinpoint any coughs.

[01:08:10] Kyle Risi: Interesting. Yes. So when they play the taping court, and they played a lot, the first time they play Cough 12, the entire courtroom bursts out laughing because honestly it does sound ridiculous, isn't it?

[01:08:23] Mm-hmm. The prosecution asked Charles why he changed his mind from Berlin to Paris during that [01:08:30] question.

[01:08:30] Oh, Charles. His response was, I knew Paris was a planned city. The center of Paris was cleared out of slums during the 19th century, rebuilt into districts and boulevards In my mind, it was connected to Napoleon ii who wanted to modernize France and help the economy flourish.

[01:08:44] Adam Cox: Um, so it looks like you've been doing some, some white reading before this, trial.

[01:08:48] Kyle Risi: So rehearsed.

[01:08:50] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:08:50] Kyle Risi: He clearly went home and read Wikipedia. Basically so the prosecution rolls their eyes. And he says, but you were adamant it was Berlin. You said Houseman [01:09:00] sounds German. So which is it, Mr. Ingram? And so Charles looks really dumb in this moment, and so he just goes silence.

[01:09:06] If you generally knew Houseman was tied to Napoleon III and designed Paris, you wouldn't have been sidetracked by the fact that it sounded German. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You'd be like, I think it might be connected to Napoleon. You would've said that rather than going Sounds jamming.

[01:09:17] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:09:17] Kyle Risi: You wouldn't have done that.

[01:09:18] So Charles in this moment looks like he's been called out in a lie. And this is also the moment that people start leaning towards him potentially being guilty. He later says though, that the reason why he went quiet was because he didn't wanna say anything [01:09:30] stupid under pressure, which was very important to him because in the early media coverage, the press were painting him as this kind of bumbling, clueless army major fool. Someone who couldn't have possibly answered their way to the jackpot, honestly.

[01:09:44] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:09:45] Kyle Risi: And so the last thing he wanted was to prove them. Correct. So he goes quiet 'cause he doesn't wanna sound stupid.

[01:09:50] But also in the few months before the trial, Charles is like, I'm gonna go do a mensa test to prove all of you motherfuckers wrong. That I am really smart. [01:10:00] And his results put him at the top 2% of the UK population.

[01:10:05] Adam Cox: So he is just got this kind of weird social ability then, or skill maybe he's very smart, but can't always convey it that well.

[01:10:11] Kyle Risi: Possibly. Yeah. So he's not stupid by any measure. He's actually very smart.

[01:10:15] And so when the trial starts, he shows up every day with his little Mensa badge on his, uh, on his label just to make sure that everyone knows it is clever. But the problem is, Adam, it's so tiny that no one even notices it.

[01:10:26] Adam Cox: What is that? Is that a stain?

[01:10:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So during the trial, they [01:10:30] also call Chris Tart to the stand. So to ease a bin, of course, they start with like some light questions. He's like providing testimony, right? Mm-hmm. You ask him, has anyone ever got the first question wrong?

[01:10:41] And Chris Tarn goes, it's happened in America. And then the whole courtroom erupts in laughter. I, yeah, Chris genuinely looks really confused, like, to him, that was a factual answer, but he inadvertently end up landing a joke.

[01:10:55] Adam Cox: They thought, yeah, he was having a dig.

[01:10:57] Kyle Risi: So the prosecution then asked if he [01:11:00] suspected anything during filming. And honestly, Chris Terrance says no his mind was on Charles and the questions, and he never noticed any pattern of coughing whatsoever, which to me is selling.

[01:11:10] This is a man who has hosted hundreds and hundreds of episodes. He's finally tuned into that environment, right? Mm-hmm. By then, you'd be completely at ease in that environment. If something suspicious had been going on kind of rhythmic coughs or weird audible things coming from the audience, I think he would've picked up on that.

[01:11:28] Adam Cox: I would've thought so. Like [01:11:30] of course he's like concentrating on his job.

[01:11:32] But if he's done this for years, he's on autopilot a little bit. So he would spot something that seemed off.

[01:11:38] Kyle Risi: I think so. Chris says that when producers first told him that they suspected cheating, his immediate response was, don't be stupid.

[01:11:44] But later he says that after seeing the evidence, he changes his mind and he becomes completely convinced that Charles, Diana, and Quin were guilty.

[01:11:53] But remember his mind is being made up that they were guilty based entirely on a doctor tape before [01:12:00] that tape was shown to him. Mm-hmm. He was like, they're totally innocent. Right. Yeah. He only changed his mind after seeing a doctor tape.

[01:12:06] He also later said that in 2020 that he Did not like the ITV drama quiz because it deliberately left things ambiguous. to him, there was no question they were definitely guilty and they definitely cheated. But again, that's based on the tape, he's allowed the tape to override his actual experience.

[01:12:25] Adam Cox: Yeah. He's made that his truth almost a little bit.

[01:12:28] Kyle Risi: I think it was also on this [01:12:30] morning, the breakfast show here in the UK, that they asked him if in hindsight there was anything that proved Charles was guilty. And he said, yeah, there was. He says, when you tell a contestant what they stand to lose if they answer incorrectly.

[01:12:44] So for example, Charles, by getting this question wrong, you stand to lose 465,000 pounds or whatever, right? Mm-hmm. Contestants instinctively put their hands over their face and they're like, oh no, what do I do? Chris is basically saying that Charles did not do that.

[01:12:59] Adam Cox: Yeah. [01:13:00]

[01:13:00] Kyle Risi: But I watched the tape. And there are two instances where Chris lays down the stakes for him the first time. He 100% does put his hands over his face. Mm-hmm. It's the second time that he doesn't.

[01:13:10] Which shows how subjective all of this is. People do react to stress in very different ways. So this tape proves that exact thing, right?

[01:13:18] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:19] Did he forget to do it though? 'Cause he was acting,

[01:13:21] Kyle Risi: who knows? Yeah, who knows? Um, but people do it differently from moment to moment. In this case he did, right?

[01:13:27] But by then the coughing pattern had already convinced Chris [01:13:30] that something weird was going wrong. Everything else, the body language, the silence, the inconsistent answers, all just reinforced what he came to believe after watching the tape.

[01:13:39] I see. So, I dunno, Am I changing your mind that maybe there might be innocence?

[01:13:43] Adam Cox: I don't feel like there's enough to say that they are innocent, if I'm honest.

[01:13:47] Kyle Risi: Is there enough to say that they're guilty?

[01:13:49] Adam Cox: Mm. It's a stretch. I feel like there's a couple of definite coughs that seem weird. Yeah. But unless we can prove it came from te one, I dunno. I don't know. I dunno what to think.

[01:13:59] Kyle Risi: So this [01:14:00] is when the defense start leaning hard into the maths. They argue that yes, there were coughs that coincided with the right answers, but there were also far more that didn't, 90% of all recorded coughs were completely innocent.

[01:14:13] And so could this just be a coincidence if the coughs that were coinciding with the correct answers is 10% of the coughs, 19 coughs?

[01:14:20] Adam Cox: Yeah. Can we hear from the microphone that picked up those coughs that they submitted? I was just wondering, 'cause then you can kind of go actually yeah, there's loads of others that are happening at the same time, from the same [01:14:30] direction or whatever. Does it sound like a different person that's coughing? I know that's probably hard to tell. But it just paints a bigger picture of what's going on.

[01:14:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah. What you really need is footage of them coughing, right? And footage of teun coughing.

[01:14:41] Adam Cox: I bet they must have cameras on the fastest finger first. People now. Just to make sure. I don't think they're like risk it.

[01:14:48] Kyle Risi: So now they focus on tewin wi talk the defense admit that yes, tewin was coughing throughout the recording because he suffered from a chronic, lifelong cough that has plagued him his [01:15:00] entire life.

[01:15:00] Adam Cox: Oh,

[01:15:01] Kyle Risi: apparently wherever he went, he had to carry a bottle of water. He carried inhalers cough medicine as well. and to prove this, they're bringing his friends and family as well as their medical records to testify to the fact that he did have a chronic cough that plagued him wherever he went.

[01:15:16] So he was naturally gonna cough

[01:15:18] Adam Cox: or he was like, do you know what? I've got a chronic cough. We could use this to our advantage.

[01:15:22] Kyle Risi: I dunno. So once I prove this, the defense then asked the obvious question, why on earth with three people build [01:15:30] a cheating system that relied entirely on a man who could have be trusted not to cough at the wrong time.

[01:15:35] Adam Cox: Yeah. But he could stifle a cough.

[01:15:37] Kyle Risi: You're just not wanting to see that they're innocent.

[01:15:40] Adam Cox: Yeah. I don't know. Which

[01:15:41] Kyle Risi: is fine.

[01:15:42] Adam Cox: Yeah, it could. I agree. I didn't know that he had a chronic cough.

[01:15:45] Kyle Risi: They said, is it really likely that Mr. Wock, a man who coughs involuntary, would agree to take part in a scheme based entirely on coughing?

[01:15:56] Maybe in some weird, warped way. They thought they could also [01:16:00] use this as a cover if it did ever. If they ever got busted.

[01:16:03] Adam Cox: That's why I'm thinking, but that's a lot to discuss in five minutes.

[01:16:05] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. They also highlighted how Implausibly rushed the supposed conspiracy was the prosecution. Were trying to argue that the entire thing was set up during a five minute phone call late at night, despite the fact that quid was probably nervous and anxious about his own performance the next day, right? Mm-hmm. I'd be like, this is not the right time to be getting me to try and cheat for you.

[01:16:27] My chances also at stake as well. Do you know what I [01:16:30] mean?

[01:16:30] So Is this really the kind of man who'd be in the head space to agree to something like that? I'm not convinced,

[01:16:36] Adam Cox: But then he's not on the show yet. He hasn't got to doing the fastest fingers first. So he's got time before that happens. And equally, they're doing this as a team, so more likely to get more money if they do it together.

[01:16:48] Kyle Risi: Yeah. We don't know if they're gonna be split the money or how they're gonna do it. I don't know.

[01:16:52] But then they also take a close look at Tewin himself. Yes. He was part of the quizzing community, but membership [01:17:00] doesn't guarantee brilliance.

[01:17:01] All it proves is that he had an enthusiasm for game shows. They argue that while Tewin had been on several game shows prior to him appearing on who wants to Be a Millionaire, he'd never done particularly well at any of them .

[01:17:15] By the way, by some incredible coincidence. It's Tegu who is the contestant who gets into the hot seat immediately after Charles Ingram wins the million.

[01:17:24] Adam Cox: Oh, does he?

[01:17:25] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So weird coincidence. And he only ends up winning a thousand [01:17:30] pounds.

[01:17:30] Adam Cox: Really?

[01:17:30] Kyle Risi: Yep. So he's enthusiastic. He's not exactly an elite kind of Quizzer

[01:17:36] Adam Cox: maybe. He's like, well, I just won a million.

[01:17:38] Kyle Risi: So if, yeah, exactly. So if this was a conspiracy. It's not just dodgy, it's tragic. Imagine helping someone win a million pounds.

[01:17:46] Adam Cox: Yeah. That you

[01:17:46] Kyle Risi: do only to walk away with a thousand bucks.

[01:17:48] Adam Cox: Yeah. Your pride to be a little bit hurt

[01:17:51] so if Tewin is part of this quizzing community, and he's been mentored before by, was it Diana's brother,

[01:17:57] Kyle Risi: Adrian?

[01:17:58] Adam Cox: Yeah. Adrian. they might have, even though they [01:18:00] had only had a five minute phone call before that particular episode.

[01:18:03] They might have been in cahoots before this.

[01:18:05] They might have spoke about it before and they're like, oh, let's use the cough idea. If at any point we're all on the show at the same time.

[01:18:11] Kyle Risi: Yeah. On the forums and stuff.

[01:18:12] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:13] Kyle Risi: Whoever on the show together, we'll do a coughing system.

[01:18:16] Adam Cox: I've got a chronic cough.

[01:18:17] Kyle Risi: That's plausible. Maybe the fact that we now know that coughing and shuffling happens in the studio audience, they felt that maybe actually we could use this to our advantage if we're ever on the show together.

[01:18:26] We could do a coughing system.

[01:18:28] Adam Cox: Maybe maybe. [01:18:30] I mean, it does seem farfetched to come up with it that quickly.

[01:18:33] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:18:33] Adam Cox: But something about this doesn't seem right.

[01:18:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:18:36] The prosecution also said it was suspicious that they never acknowledged each other on set, despite knowing each other very, very well enough to essentially make their phone call right. Again. I think they were just both in their own heads. One preparing to play and the other one was supporting her husband.

[01:18:53] The defense also drew a comparison between the number of coughs picked up during the UK's [01:19:00] first ever million pound win in 2000 by a woman called Judith Keppel. They found. A comparable number of coughs throughout the entire episode, some even landing very close to correct answers.

[01:19:14] So coughing, as we said in the audience, is completely typical to me. It sounds like a classic confirmation bias. As we've said a bunch of times, someone starts spotting a potential pattern, they hone in on it, and then from there, everything else that [01:19:30] happens simply confirms what they already believe.

[01:19:32] This includes Charles's odd theatrical answering style, which he admits was an attempt to make himself seem more entertaining because he does wanna risk if Adrian is correct will they actually give him easier answers?

[01:19:45] Adam Cox: Yeah. I do wonder how true, 'cause I guess that's a suspicion, right? That, Adrian has. So we don't know for sure if that's what they do.

[01:19:52] Kyle Risi: So when you lay it all out, there's more than enough reasonable doubt for me to say there is a solid chance that this is all just a coincidence in [01:20:00] my opinion. And I think that you're maybe not quite there.

[01:20:04] Adam Cox: I'm not quite there. I'm not saying like they're definitely guilty, but I'm also saying that they're definitely not innocent.

[01:20:11] Kyle Risi: But out of 192 recorded coughs, only 19, so remember 10% were labeled as suspicious. But crucially, those labels of the suspicious coughs were assigned by the very company that had more to lose financially. If you are on the hook for a million pounds, are you really gonna be objective when you are [01:20:30] editing that tape? I don't think so.

[01:20:31] Adam Cox: Yeah. I'm surprised like they didn't have a independent party to look at the tape. Yeah. And evaluate it. And it sounds like they didn't.

[01:20:38] Kyle Risi: No, it doesn't sound like it. They were the ones who compiled the evidence themselves. And took them six versions.

[01:20:44] Adam Cox: Like with any prosecution defense like you bring in, like a psychologist or whatever, don't you, for an independent research or whatever. And it feels like they should have done this to kind of vet the

[01:20:53] Kyle Risi: tape.

[01:20:53] Yeah, for sure. There's a little brilliant anecdote from the courtroom apparently, because the court had watched the [01:21:00] footage so many times and talks about coughing. So much coughing started to become contagious within the courtroom.

[01:21:06] Like everyone was just coughing. So it's a bit like yawning.

[01:21:09] The judge eventually has to stop the trial because half the courtroom was essentially coughing. He literally thought they were taking the piss. Which makes me wonder is that what happened in the studio that night? Tech one's coughing caused a chain reaction.

[01:21:21] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:21] Kyle Risi: So it's, it's strange, but after four weeks, the jury retired to deliberate and after three days they returned. And the verdict was that Charles, [01:21:30] Diana and Quin were guilty and they were convicted for procuring the execution of a valuable security. By deception. That's what they're charged with.

[01:21:39] Adam Cox: really, they don't just say fraud.

[01:21:42] Kyle Risi: So Charles and Diana, they both receive 18 month prison sentences. Quinn gets 12 months. They're all suspended for two years, meaning that none of them actually have to serve any time. Mm-hmm. But Charles and Diana, they're fine. 15,000 pounds each, plus 10,000 pounds in legal costs, and Quinn gets a 10,000 pound fine [01:22:00] with 7,500 pounds in legal costs.

[01:22:03] But while there's no jail time, they all three leave court publicly disgraced.

[01:22:09] Of course, Charles, Diane, and Tein, they still maintain their innocence even to this day.

[01:22:15] And if they were really innocent, that really fucking sucks because it means that this is one of the most unfortunate coincidences ever caught on television. Mm-hmm. Even more so for Paul Tein, a man who lives with his chronic lifelong cough, [01:22:30] something he just can't control only for it to land him a criminal conviction.

[01:22:34] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's true actually. If they are indeed innocent, then what a load of mis justice.

[01:22:39] Kyle Risi: Sadly, Adam, it doesn't end there. Soon after this, Charles is forced to resign from the army, the Ingrams, they end up losing their home. Both their reputations are shot more so for Charles, since he struggles to find work again.

[01:22:51] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:52] Kyle Risi: They end up being in 400,000 pounds in debt. And so to try and stay afloat. Charles commits insurance [01:23:00] fraud. He is found out. He's arrested, he's dragged through the courts once again.

[01:23:04] But he says he literally had no option if he wanted to feed his family and keep their heads afloat, this was the only option.

[01:23:11] And in an interview years later, I think in the lead up to the release of quiz in 2020, Charles says that between 2003 and 2007, their home and their pets were attacked more than 60 times.

[01:23:25] Adam Cox: That's gross. Yeah. Like why do people feel the need to like attack these [01:23:30] people at the end of the day? I dunno, I just feel that's a bit unfair.

[01:23:32] Kyle Risi: He says that it was mostly, uh, down to youths, which places how old he is at this point, right? He says that they beat his dog to the point of death.

[01:23:41] Adam Cox: That's awful.

[01:23:42] Kyle Risi: The cat was shot with an air rifle. Luckily it survived. their windows are routinely smashed, nails are left under their car tires, their bins get overturned. He says it wasn't uncommon for them to wake up for their entire house to be egged. One time they threw a bag of vomit And he knew it was vomit. 'Cause when he smelled it, he almost puked.

[01:23:59] Adam Cox: [01:24:00] Ah, that's unfortunate. That's just horrible.

[01:24:02] Kyle Risi: I feel awful for him. Yeah. He says that in public people would routinely cough at them as well. One time at the cinema, it was so bad that they were all forced to leave just 'cause they didn't wanna disturb the other patrons in the cinema.

[01:24:12] Another time Charles says he was out jogging and someone nearly ran him off the road in their car, and at first he thought it was just an accent until the car slowed down and then coughed out the window.

[01:24:23] Adam Cox: Really? So

[01:24:25] Kyle Risi: that's how we knew he was being targeted.

[01:24:26] Adam Cox: I mean, at the end of the day, these people that trying to go for him, he [01:24:30] hasn't harmed them by any means, right?

[01:24:31] Kyle Risi: No, he hasn't. I would say it's a victimless crime. Right?

[01:24:34] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:24:34] Kyle Risi: It gets to the boiling point in 2007 when it all becomes too much for him, that he ends up assaulting a 13-year-old boy who spat in his face and then cough at him, and so he gets dragged through the courts again. And even though the boy later admits to exaggerating his story, Charles is still found guilty.

[01:24:55] So it just feels like there's just so much injustice hanging over his family. Hmm. I really do feel [01:25:00] so awful for them.

[01:25:00] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:25:01] Kyle Risi: The craziest part is that most of this abuse is coming from kids, right? Kids who weren't even old enough to remember the scandal. Like This 13-year-old would've been six years old.

[01:25:12] So it's clearly just their parents parroting what had happened. It's coming from them.

[01:25:16] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:25:17] Kyle Risi: So with Charles unable to find work and support his family, the only option they have is to capitalize on the infamy that has been forced on them. And so this marks a period of them doing the whole reality TV C [01:25:30] thing.

[01:25:30] And the thing is though, they know that going into this, that people are gonna just hate them even more. Massively slow down the public forgetting about them all together, which is what they want. But at the same time, they also still need to support their family. So it's either okay, we lean into it, we go into get hated even more or we starve and then we finally get forgotten.

[01:25:49] What are you gonna choose?

[01:25:51] Adam Cox: Yeah, you need to feed your family so you're gonna do whatever it takes.

[01:25:54] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Do you remember what shows they ended up doing?

[01:25:57] Adam Cox: Did he do I'm a celebrity?

[01:25:58] Kyle Risi: No, I don't think [01:26:00] so. Okay. No, he ends up doing, we Swap.

[01:26:02] Adam Cox: Oh, okay.

[01:26:03] Kyle Risi: did it ring a bell?

[01:26:03] Adam Cox: Vaguely. So

[01:26:05] Kyle Risi: who does he swap with?

[01:26:06] Adam Cox: It's gotta be another celeb. Well, you know, celebrity type person, right?

[01:26:09] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[01:26:10] Adam Cox: Who?

[01:26:10] Kyle Risi: Jade Goodie and Jeff Razer.

[01:26:13] Adam Cox: Really?

[01:26:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Jade Goodie has been dead for 16 years now. Wow. Isn't that crazy? She died from cervical cancer, but she was a victim of another kind of cancellation, if you will. Mm-hmm. For I think saying some racist remarks on Big Brother towards Hilti. Mm-hmm. But God, that's awful. But [01:26:30] apparently their stint on white. SWAT is of course chaos. Charles, famously is impatient.

[01:26:34] So he has to obviously deal with Jay's manic energy. She tries to give him a makeover, which basically involves her dressing him like a chav. She says to Charles, if a track suit is good enough for David Beckham, then it's good enough for you.

[01:26:47] Adam Cox: Wow.

[01:26:48] Kyle Risi: Jade Goody thinks that David Beckham is a chaff.

[01:26:50] Adam Cox: Yeah. Okay.

[01:26:51] He's not gonna be best pleased about that.

[01:26:53] Kyle Risi: They also later appear on the weakest link with Anne Robertson, where of course, one of the answers to the questions is cough.

[01:26:58] Adam Cox: Oh, is it? [01:27:00] So

[01:27:00] Kyle Risi: finally, in 2020, ITV released quiz, which is a three part dramatization of the entire scandal. And believe it or not, this actually becomes a little bit of a lifeline for them, excuse the pun.

[01:27:12] But for the first time, people start seeing this case with the nuance that it deserves. As we said at the top of the show, the show was written by James Graham who says that when he first started researching, he was convinced that they were guilty.

[01:27:25] But the more he digs into it, the more people he spoke to, the more he started changing his [01:27:30] mind. And he says, yes, there were 19 coughs on the right answers, but there were over 180 others that just weren't.

[01:27:37] You also found it suspicious that cell door took months and six versions before handing over their tape to the police. Not to mention that they had already paid out 3 million pounds in prize money in the previous two years. So they had every incentive in his mind to not pay out another.

[01:27:53] Mm-hmm. And there's a funny little side note. When Quiz aired in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, James and the producers were [01:28:00] skeptical about whether or not anyone would actually wanna watch a show about coughing, but it turns out there was a massive hit.

[01:28:06] Adam Cox: Yeah, I do remember watching it. It was good.

[01:28:08] Kyle Risi: James says that he did speak to previous contestants and audience members, and this is where he found out that whispering and gasping and even chatting about questions and answers during filming wasn't something that was unusual. One guy says that he was sitting there and an audience member leaned over and asked him if he knew the answer and he didn't. And he was like, gleefully then told him what the answer was. He's like, it's [01:28:30] deep.

[01:28:30] So this kind of backs up what Charles said, like there were two occasions where he heard audience gasps, that you can pick up on. You can pick up on the vibes of the audience

[01:28:40] Adam Cox: and I guess he's not gonna say, oh, I'm changing my answer because the audience just gave me a clue

[01:28:45] Kyle Risi: exactly which he, it wouldn't be cheating if he did say that, right?

[01:28:48] Mm-hmm. It's up to the studio to stop that from happening. And the truth is, while no one can say with absolute certainty what really happened, I do believe that there is plenty of plausible [01:29:00] explanations that account for the behavior enough for reasonable doubts.

[01:29:04] Mm-hmm. Which in a court should have been enough for him to be exonerated, and yet he was found guilty.

[01:29:10] Adam Cox: Yeah,

[01:29:10] Kyle Risi: of course. As you know, like the most damning moment was the strange, no cough, but we have no footage of Quinn making that cough.

[01:29:18] Adam Cox: And if it was the same person mm-hmm.

[01:29:19] Kyle Risi: I reckon that is the, the, the bit of evidence that sparks this whole thing

[01:29:24] Adam Cox: I feel sympathy for him because ultimately he didn't deserve the hate and stuff like that, that came his way. Mm-hmm. [01:29:30] And if he did try and do it, he almost got away with it. So well done. Yeah. In a way. And if he didn't do it, then that's a real sad. Actually,

[01:29:37] Kyle Risi: He was on an interview not that long ago where people were saying, what do you think when you see the footage now? And he is it's brilliant. Like I actually won a million pounds.

[01:29:46] And I think that's quite telling in a way. If he sees it as wow, this is incredible. But then obviously at the back of his mind he understands that there's this whole stigma behind it.

[01:29:54] Adam Cox: Mm.

[01:29:54] Kyle Risi: But he gets a thrill when he watches it because to him he genuinely won a million pounds.

[01:29:59] Adam Cox: Yeah. That [01:30:00] must be really sad to go like actually, if it is all genuine.

[01:30:02] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:30:03] Adam Cox: He never got to get

[01:30:03] Kyle Risi: the money and he never got the money. Yeah.

[01:30:05] So I'd love to know what you guys think. Watch the footage that we've linked in the show notes and yeah. Let us know. Do you think that he was guilty? But Adam?

[01:30:13] That is the story of the, who Wants Be a Millionaire Coughing scandal. That might have been the biggest misunderstanding ever to hit primetime television

[01:30:22] Adam Cox: or one of the best heists ever,

[01:30:24] Kyle Risi: or one of the best heists ever. I don't know. I'm sure he's innocent, but it would be cool if he actually did this.

[01:30:29] Adam Cox: [01:30:30] Yeah. Good story. Good. I liked the fact that we did the questions and realized, yep, I can't go on. He wants to be a millionaire. I think

[01:30:36] Kyle Risi: you could. Yeah, I think you'd do Well. I'd be your phone a friend and you'd have your 50 50 and you are, uh, you asked the audience,

[01:30:42] Adam Cox: I'm not sure I've made it to a thousand pounds. I've got some of his questions, but I don't think I would've done anywhere near as well as him.

[01:30:48] Cool. So shall we do the outro?

[01:30:51] Kyle Risi: Let's do the outro.

[01:30:52] And so that brings us to the end of another fascinating foray into the compendium and assembly of fascinating things.

[01:30:58] Adam Cox: and

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[01:31:26] Kyle Risi: We drop new episodes every Tuesday and until then, remember [01:31:30] every answer sounds certain when you've already locked it in. We'll see you next time.

[01:31:34] Adam Cox: See you. [01:32:00]