Michael Jackson Part 2: Testimonies, Trials, and Controversy

[00:00:00] Adam Cox: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Compendium, an Assembly of Fascinating Things, a weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering.

[00:00:09] Kyle Risi: We explore stories from the darker corners of true crime, the hidden gems of history, and the jaw dropping deeds of extraordinary people.

[00:00:17] Adam Cox: I'm your ringmaster for this episode, Adam Cox.

[00:00:19] Kyle Risi: And I'm Kyle Reese, your commissioner for Controlled Alarm here at the Compendium Circus.

[00:00:25] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:00:26] Adam Cox: Go on then. Carry on. Let's give you your little segment for the show.

[00:00:30] Kyle Risi: Basically, my role is to ensure that all panic remains professional, measured, and at the appropriate level suited to the situation.

[00:00:39] Adam Cox: Okay?

[00:00:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:00:40] Adam Cox: So if anyone's too hysterical, you're like, no, no, no.

[00:00:42] Adam Cox: Bring it down a notch.

[00:00:43] Kyle Risi: Exactly. We are not here to eliminate fear. We are here to manage it, document, to catalog it even. But most importantly, make sure nobody starts screaming before the correct forms have been filled out.

[00:00:57] Adam Cox: So as soon as someone goes like they, they [00:01:00] take that inhaler breath, you're like, Nope.

[00:01:01] Adam Cox: No.

[00:01:02] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. And the form is classically a C 48. So. Yeah, I don't know. Sue just came up with that one. But basically this all started because a junior staff member shouted, everybody stay calm, intent number three, which of course, as you can imagine, immediately causes panic because that phrase is never used in a calm situation.

[00:01:22] Adam Cox: No,

[00:01:23] Kyle Risi: exactly. And then within 90 seconds, two jugglers, they were crying. One child was holding a fire bucket for emotional support, and the strong man had barricaded himself in the merch kiosk. So this is why they have me. And since last week, Kate Brown, we've taken away her salary. 60,000 bucks.

[00:01:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah. For to pay me. All she has is a kazoo.

[00:01:46] Adam Cox: Yeah. That's all she needs.

[00:01:47] Kyle Risi: That's what she said.

[00:01:49] Adam Cox: Okay. So guys, if you are new to the show and you want to support us, then the absolute best way is to join us over on Patreon. You can get access to exclusive Perks. It's completely [00:02:00] free. And you get next week's episode, seven days early,

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[00:02:13] Adam Cox: But Kyle, of course, the main reason people join our circus becomes a certified freak or a big top tier member, is to get access to our exclusive compendium key chain.

[00:02:24] Kyle Risi: And if you don't know that by now, what's happening?

[00:02:26] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:02:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Everyone knows about the crotch dangler.

[00:02:29] Adam Cox: Right now you've got a naked crutch and we wanna fix that.

[00:02:33] Kyle Risi: Yes. That's it.

[00:02:34] Kyle Risi: And lastly, guys, please follow us on your favorite podcasting app and leave us a review. Your support really genuinely does so much to support the show and helps other people find us.

[00:02:45] Adam Cox: But that's enough of the housekeeping because Kyle, today on the compendium, we are diving back into an assembly of allegations, courtrooms, and a legacy that divides opinion.

[00:02:56] Kyle Risi: Ooh, I have no idea what this is about.

[00:02:58] Adam Cox: Yes, you do. We said we were gonna do a [00:03:00] second

[00:03:01] Kyle Risi: without my authority. Yes. This is the second part of Michael Jackson, huh?

[00:03:05] Adam Cox: Yes. Our Michael Jackson Epic. This is part two. Testimonies, trials and controversy.

[00:03:11] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Oh, all the good stuff, right? Yeah. All the stuff that we want to know about.

[00:03:15] Adam Cox: That's

[00:03:15] Kyle Risi: right. I mean, it was, it was good. I really enjoyed finding out about Michael Jackson's rise because it was the Michael Jackson that I remember growing up, right? Incredible personality. What I didn't really know too much about was the Jackson five stuff. 'cause of course that became before I was born. Mm-hmm. But like it was so nice to like fill in the gaps, but also to see how a lot of that pain and childhood trauma shaped him into the man who he would become, which I think is safe to say, to sum up. A very bruised, broken human being. Mm-hmm. That was still desperate to cling onto his childhood.

[00:03:49] Adam Cox: That's right. Yeah. In part one, we started our story with Michael Jackson. The story that everyone agrees on, but as we get into part two, this is where there are firmly [00:04:00] two camps in.

[00:04:01] Adam Cox: Is Michael Jackson innocent or the, is there truth to the allegations that surround him?

[00:04:06] Adam Cox: So let's just reset where we are because up to this point, Michael Jackson is untouchable.

[00:04:12] Adam Cox: He's come from a two bedroom house in Gary to the biggest star on the planet, the Motown years, the solo career thriller, the moonwalk, a level of fame that doesn't really exist before him.

[00:04:23] Adam Cox: But underneath that all, there are already signs that things aren't normal.

[00:04:28] Adam Cox: A childhood that never really happened, a man trying to hold onto it. And at the same time, there's something else happening behind the scenes because by the late eighties and into the early nineties, Michael isn't just performing. He's managing pain, physical and something deeper. He's got injuries from the Pepsi commercial.

[00:04:46] Kyle Risi: Oh yeah.

[00:04:46] Adam Cox: And then he's got this insomnia that doesn't go away.

[00:04:50] Adam Cox: And so treatment begins, he sees doctors, he gets medication, things to help him sleep, to recover, to keep him going.

[00:04:57] Adam Cox: And then of course there's Netherland, this place where [00:05:00] children are invited into his world to be kids. There's sleepovers,

[00:05:04] Adam Cox: but it's a lifestyle that raises questions long before allegations. And then that broken down car incident with the, where he gets to meet the Chandlers.

[00:05:13] Kyle Risi: So that's kind of like the thing that kicks off all of the sexual abuse allegations against him.

[00:05:18] Adam Cox: That's throughout

[00:05:19] Kyle Risi: the nineties, isn't it?

[00:05:20] Adam Cox: It is, yeah. And at first it seems pretty harmless, their relationship. 'cause this family's invited to stay with Michael Jackson and it, it seems like something you wouldn't turn down.

[00:05:29] Adam Cox: Right.

[00:05:29] Kyle Risi: You know, why would you? It's magical. He's the biggest pop star in the world.

[00:05:33] Adam Cox: Yeah. And they develop this friendship. Then there's these trips. They go to Netherland to visit him. There's trips to Las Vegas, Paris, Morocco. And from the outside it looks like a really close unit.

[00:05:46] Adam Cox: It starts raising questions. 'cause during this time, Jordan is staying at Neverland, he's sleeping there and he's traveling with Jackson and he's sharing a room with him, sometimes even a bed.

[00:05:56] Adam Cox: Now, Jackson would later say this was all innocent, like a [00:06:00] sleepover. And his defenders would argue that's exactly how they saw it.

[00:06:03] Adam Cox: But even at the time, not everyone agreed because watching all of this unfold is Jordan's father, Evan Chandler

[00:06:10] Kyle Risi: and he's his biological father. Right? He doesn't live with them. So the fact that his mother June, and I'm assuming it's his stepfather. Mm-hmm. Is that right?

[00:06:19] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:06:19] Kyle Risi: Is like giving him access to Michael Jackson. Essentially he's sitting there on the side going, I don't want this.

[00:06:26] Adam Cox: Yeah. It makes sense, right?

[00:06:28] Adam Cox: Because from his perspective, his son is being pulled into someone else's world like this. Almost father figure perhaps. But it's a world that he doesn't control and it's a world where he's actually very concerned for the wellbeing of his son.

[00:06:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And out of interest, you said at the end of the last show, like Outta Nowhere, Jordan admitted that Michael Jackson had molested him.

[00:06:48] Kyle Risi: And that came after the father had already raised his concerns about why his son was going to see Michael Jackson.

[00:06:56] Kyle Risi: Do you think this could have been a coerced admittance?

[00:06:59] Adam Cox: Well, [00:07:00] that's exactly where we're picking up the story today.

[00:07:02] Kyle Risi: Oh, interesting.

[00:07:03] Adam Cox: So Jordan's just made that huge revelation.

[00:07:06] Kyle Risi: What does he say out of interest? Do you know?

[00:07:08] Adam Cox: I dunno the exact words, but he's asked, did Michael abuse him and he agrees to it.

[00:07:13] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. And he admits that happens.

[00:07:14] Adam Cox: So this point I think we need to understand the kind of guy who Evan Chandler is, because on paper he's a dentist. He's successful, he's well connected.

[00:07:23] Adam Cox: He's the kind of guy that has access to these celebrity clients, one of which is the late Carrie Fisher. Mm-hmm. She would describe him as a dentist to the stars.

[00:07:34] Adam Cox: deeper, Seen a lot of cavities. I've seen a lot of famous cavities.

[00:07:38] Adam Cox: Yeah. But when you dig a bit deeper, in her memoir, in fact, she describes something different. He would arrange appointments that weren't really about dentistry. And according to her, Dr. Chandler wasn't just treating patients.

[00:07:50] Adam Cox: In fact, she says he's less like a dentist and more like a dealer. In

what

[00:07:53] Kyle Risi: way? Giving them like, like love and guess.

[00:07:56] Adam Cox: I think drugs. I'm guessing not like hardcore [00:08:00] drugs Sure. But drugs that would use to treat pain, things like that.

[00:08:03] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Interesting.

[00:08:04] Adam Cox: And he would reveal to her in fact, that he was suspicious of Michael Jackson. Yet he still allowed and even encourage his son to spend time with him, which is where things start to feel inconsistent.

[00:08:15] Adam Cox: Because on one hand he's raising concerns, but on the other hand, he's not stopping the relationship.

[00:08:20] Kyle Risi: Mm.

[00:08:20] Adam Cox: And behind the scenes, those concerns don't stay private because he starts talking to multiple people, not just Carrie Fisher, including one meeting in July at, Jordan, mother's partner, David Schwartz's office, the breakdown place.

[00:08:33] Adam Cox: And what he doesn't know is that his conversation is being recorded and what comes out of it doesn't sound like concern.

[00:08:40] Adam Cox: He says that, and this, when he is referring to Michael, he will not believe what is going to happen to him beyond his worst nightmares. He will not sell one more record. Jackson is an evil guy. He's worse than that. And I have the evidence to prove it.

[00:08:54] Kyle Risi: I mean, the, that's really interesting because what you're suggesting there is that, he's going out to [00:09:00] get him.

[00:09:00] Kyle Risi: But what's really important here is what's come first. Has his son at this point admitted that he has been molested and therefore he's saying this at that point.

[00:09:10] Kyle Risi: Or is he revealing his plan that he's going to get his son to say that he was molested? Do we know the timeline and the order of these different things?

[00:09:20] Adam Cox: So he doesn't in this conversation, reveal anything about the son? I think he shared concerns about the son, but he's not saying what he's actually going to do.

[00:09:29] Kyle Risi: Yeah. It's such a flip, isn't it? Could go one way or the other. What is your take on it?

[00:09:34] Adam Cox: I think the fact he actually goes on to say that June will lose custody and Michael's career will be over. I just think at this point in time, like what is his intention? But for this, because at one point he's asked a simple question, how does any of this help Jordan? And apparently he says something like, oh, that's irrelevant.

[00:09:53] Kyle Risi: And it helps Jordan because if there is a settlement, it helps Jordan a lot.

[00:09:58] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:58] Kyle Risi: Think of the power ranges. [00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Adam Cox: Yeah. So I can understand if, he was concerned about his son and he wanted to bring justice because Michael Jackson had obviously, you know, wrongdoing.

[00:10:08] Adam Cox: I can get all that, but why would you allow your son still to be in the presence of Michael, whether you could prove the abuse or not?

[00:10:14] Kyle Risi: Very true.

[00:10:15] Adam Cox: And that doesn't sound to me like you're putting the safety of your son first.

[00:10:19] Kyle Risi: Oh, absolutely not. And two things could be true.

[00:10:22] Kyle Risi: One thing could be that yes, his son has been molested and yet he sees this as a payday.

[00:10:28] Adam Cox: And

[00:10:28] Kyle Risi: so what does he have more concern for? Knowing that okay, my son will just get molested a couple more times to like really solidify the deal and then I'll go cash in, right? Mm-hmm. Once I've got evidence or whatever.

[00:10:40] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:10:40] Kyle Risi: Is very interesting. But yeah, it doesn't seem like he has any concern for his son.

[00:10:45] Adam Cox: Yes. That's the main thing I get from this guy. It's hard to really understand exactly what went on.

[00:10:51] Adam Cox: 'Cause let's take a look at Jordan's actual confession. It was, oh, in August, in 1993 during a dental visit to his dad and [00:11:00] Evan Chandler administers a drug called sodium amile, ~uh, ~which is sometimes called a truth serum, but in reality it doesn't reveal truth. It just lowers kind of resistance. Or you are, I guess you are more perceptive, I guess.

[00:11:12] Kyle Risi: Sure. And you're probably still out of it as well, right? Yeah. You're not very lucid. And so there's a chance that you could hallucinate

[00:11:20] Adam Cox: and you can be well, highly suggestible. Which is why statements made under it aren't admissible in court.

[00:11:27] Kyle Risi: Fine.

[00:11:28] Adam Cox: And under that influence, his son is asked that question, has Michael been appropriate or abusing him? And he responds, yes. And that's what triggers the whole. Next set of events because from there it doesn't go straight to the police. In fact, Evan Chandler seeks money from Michael Jackson and his team allegedly it's around $20 million. And some say that it was because Evan Chandler wanted a deal for film projects and screenplays, 'cause he could see himself as a bit of a screenwriter in Hollywood.

[00:11:58] Kyle Risi: Oh, interesting.

[00:11:59] Adam Cox: [00:12:00] Not confirmed, allegedly, but that's what some people speculate why he was after this money.

[00:12:05] Kyle Risi: Yeah. We just need an umbrella term for this whole episode, allegedly, just in case we forget to say it in certain places.

[00:12:11] Adam Cox: Yes. Maybe we just put that in the title.

[00:12:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Allegedly just call it allegedly.

[00:12:16] Adam Cox: And also 'cause at the time, Sony had backed Michael Jackson with tens of millions to launch a production company.

[00:12:22] Kyle Risi: Oh yeah. Where he got the 50% ownership Rights.

[00:12:25] Adam Cox: Rights. Yeah. So I think some people believe that Evan Chandler was trying to get close enough to get involved with that. But that's just one version of events and, people can clearly just jump on the conspiracy wagon.

[00:12:36] Kyle Risi: I think what we're establishing here is that there is very clearly a motivation to, bend the truth.

[00:12:43] Adam Cox: And extort Michael Jackson

[00:12:44] Kyle Risi: and Yes. And again, that doesn't prove that's exactly what he did, but it shows that that's what makes it so difficult. Right?

[00:12:51] Adam Cox: Well, the fact that he goes to Michael Jackson and his team first, and they spend a couple of weeks going back and forth trying to come to a settlement or some kind of arrangement, [00:13:00] but they don't give in because they're like, yeah, this is extortion.

[00:13:02] Adam Cox: And so is it the father trying to build a case to kind of look the guy's guilty? Mm-hmm. He would've offered me money, or is he just trying to maximize leverage? ' cause it's a couple weeks later that Jordan Chandler goes to a psychiatrist.

[00:13:15] Adam Cox: And during that session, Jordan describes the sexual contact, the kissing, the touching. And it's only then when it's forwarded to law enforcement that the police get involved.

[00:13:24] Adam Cox: And so the police open up a criminal investigation and search warrants are issued and Neverland is searched and there's, they're looking for videotapes and photographs. Everything is taken, but almost

[00:13:36] Kyle Risi: why specifically videotapes,

[00:13:37] Adam Cox: I guess it's quite, common for a pedophile to recreate

[00:13:41] Kyle Risi: situation. Sure. And is, I was just wondering whether or not this was something and a very explicit allegation that maybe Jordan had revealed during a confession or under this lucid state, or that the father was saying. 'cause it sounds like they were looking specifically for videotapes.

[00:13:55] Adam Cox: I think it might not necessarily have been of Michael Jackson [00:14:00] himself, but I guess he might have an archive or have footage, you know, others.

[00:14:03] Adam Cox: Oh, right,

[00:14:04] Kyle Risi: sure.

[00:14:04] Adam Cox: That's why I understood that to be,

[00:14:05] Kyle Risi: I'm with you.

[00:14:06] Adam Cox: Any evidence that they could say that he was a pedophile.

[00:14:08] Adam Cox: But almost immediately. Investigators can't really find anything. There's no physical evidence, no clear proof. And behind the scenes they're scrambling trying to find anyone else, any pattern or corroboration.

[00:14:20] Adam Cox: So other boys are interviewed and some names you might recognize. a boy called Wade Robson.

[00:14:25] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:26] Adam Cox: another boy called Brett Barnes, both publicly say they stayed with Jackson, slept in his bed, but nothing happened.

[00:14:33] Adam Cox: However, we will come back to Wade Robson in particular.

[00:14:37] Adam Cox: He features several times in this story.

[00:14:39] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Interesting. But then I also could see how if there are quite a lot of boys, it's easy for someone like Michael to kind of say, well, just tell the cops this. Mm-hmm. It's a possibility.

[00:14:50] Adam Cox: Quite possible. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:14:52] Adam Cox: But the moment no one is coming forward or basically backing up the story.

[00:14:57] Adam Cox: So there's a complete media storm about [00:15:00] this. Michael responds publicly, denies everything, says he's innocent, calls the allegations disgusting, but behind the scenes,

[00:15:07] Kyle Risi: of course he would say that, that's like the Peter Fs motto.

[00:15:09] Adam Cox: Oh yeah.

[00:15:10] Adam Cox: But behind the scenes, the pressure is building, because there, there isn't just a criminal case.

[00:15:15] Adam Cox: There's now also a civil case against him. Now that's filed. In 1993.

[00:15:20] Kyle Risi: By who is this? By the Chandler?

[00:15:22] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:15:23] Adam Cox: So both investigations continue and the media pressure intensifies. So he cancels part of his tour and starts, treatment for painkiller dependency.

[00:15:33] Adam Cox: And when he returns, Michael Jackson is ordered to undergo a strip search, he's photographed and examined I guess to look at his body to whether that, matches with the description Jordan Chandler.

[00:15:45] Kyle Risi: Ah, so he is got de like he can describe like a mole or something on his body or something. Or his penis.

[00:15:51] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly that though. Looking at sketches, looking at skin tone discoloration, which was consistent with vitiligo. But the problem is that [00:16:00] vitiligo can also kind of change patches.

[00:16:02] Adam Cox: So where Jordan might just say, oh, the skin was like this by the time they might be looking at Mike or that could have changed slightly. So it's, it, you know, you couldn't rely upon that.

[00:16:12] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And he is actively applying bleaching stuff to physically change it. So I guess over time, yeah,

[00:16:20] Adam Cox: that could have changed it as

[00:16:21] Kyle Risi: well.

[00:16:22] Kyle Risi: That could changed it as well.

[00:16:23] Adam Cox: Jordan also says that Michael is circumcised and the exam shows he isn't. So this is very

[00:16:28] Kyle Risi: Oh, interesting.

[00:16:29] Adam Cox: Awful.

[00:16:30] Kyle Risi: It is awful that he had to describe that.

[00:16:32] Adam Cox: But then he's a young boy. He could be mistaken. Was he guessing or was he influenced or maybe just, I don't know. Didn't recognize,

[00:16:40] Kyle Risi: yeah. And that point would a young boy even know what circumcised is? Because like obviously if you are circumcised, you are just circumcising that as your Willie, right?

[00:16:48] Kyle Risi: To be shown a Willie that is circumcised and not circumcised, you'd be like, I remember first seeing my first circumcised penis and going, that looks weird.

[00:16:57] Kyle Risi: Looks like an old man. My best friend. We were bing [00:17:00] together and just thinking, that's strange. But I would never have gone, oh, it's because he's circumcised. I'd just be like, oh, that's his Willie, do you know what I mean? And then I got circumcised and then my Willie is like an old man.

[00:17:10] Adam Cox: I dunno if I can keep this there.

[00:17:13] Kyle Risi: So I don't know if a young boy would know what circumcision is.

[00:17:16] Adam Cox: Yeah. And equally,~ um, ~the penis can change shape and so if he was aroused it might, by

[00:17:22] Kyle Risi: the minute

[00:17:22] Adam Cox: it might, it might look like a circumcised penis.

[00:17:25] Kyle Risi: Yeah, possibly.

[00:17:27] Adam Cox: So there basically in the end, the kind of examination and the description, it doesn't really settle anything. In fact, it probably just makes the whole situation worse for Jordan.

[00:17:37] Adam Cox: Now, this is obviously taking its toll on Michael.

[00:17:39] Adam Cox: That's not necessary to sympathize with him, but it, it's clearly affecting him. But let's say he is innocent, and this is extortion, and this is completely unfair, but to make matters worse, one of the Jackson Zone family turns on him.

[00:17:54] Adam Cox: Latoya Jackson.

[00:17:55] Kyle Risi: Yeah. You mentioned this in the last episode.

[00:17:57] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:17:58] Adam Cox: So in a statement she says that she [00:18:00] loves her brother, but she won't stay silent about crimes against children.

[00:18:04] Kyle Risi: Tell me.

[00:18:04] Adam Cox: And she claims she has proof and even offers to sell it. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[00:18:09] Adam Cox: Exactly.

[00:18:10] Kyle Risi: Can I just, let me just throw something out there.

[00:18:12] Kyle Risi: I bet you any money, nothing comes from this. Someone persuade her to not reveal it or whatever.

[00:18:18] Adam Cox: Well, first thing, if she does have proof, then why are you now talking about it?

[00:18:23] Kyle Risi: And why do you wanna sell it?

[00:18:24] Adam Cox: That's the main thing. So you're not trying to do the greater good here. You're trying to profit from this.

[00:18:28] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[00:18:29] Adam Cox: So some outlets do show interest, but the deals collapse because the evidence never appears and then suspicion grows that she's just lying.

[00:18:38] Adam Cox: Then everything just changes because shortly after, she just takes it all back and says, oh, Michael is a thousand percent innocent.

[00:18:45] Adam Cox: So she starts defending him publicly again and says there was nothing unusual about his relationship with children so why would she go and say that?

[00:18:54] Kyle Risi: Hey, throwing it out there, she's obviously, and that was a very key thing that you said, I'm willing to sell [00:19:00] it, right? And then all of a sudden it doesn't go anywhere. Could it be that the Michael Jackson estate has then given her above what she would've probably wanted had she sold it to make this go away?

[00:19:11] Adam Cox: Possibly. But she's turned on her family.

[00:19:13] Kyle Risi: She has, yes, which is a good thing. She's turned on her family, if it's true. Yeah. But then she's been bought by her family, which Yeah. Doesn't sound great, does it?

[00:19:23] Adam Cox: Yeah. Either way it doesn't look good.

[00:19:25] Kyle Risi: Again, it leaves us in the situation of not knowing what the truth is, right?

[00:19:28] Adam Cox: But then she does explain, the reason she said what she said was because she was forced that her ex-husband, Jack Gordon was violently abusive, that he controlled her and coerced her into making those statements.

[00:19:41] Adam Cox: Apparently he also forced her to give interviews, do a Playboy shoot. And it was why, back in the early nineties that she revealed that her dad had abused her as a child in one of her memoirs, or suppose it is around this time that she had said that.

[00:19:55] Kyle Risi: But we know the abuse is probably true.

[00:19:58] Adam Cox: That is true. Because [00:20:00] I think she feared for her life and she ends up escaping her marriage. Her brothers actually come to take her away. Oh,

[00:20:06] Kyle Risi: really? Good for them. Scooby-Doo came to the rescue.

[00:20:09] Adam Cox: Yeah. So it maybe explains why she said what she said at the time. Or her ex-husband is trying to get money or whatever from the press, maybe that's why he's using Latoya for.

[00:20:19] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:19] Adam Cox: Um, but the damage is already done because now even within Michael's own family, the narrative is kind of fractured.

[00:20:26] Kyle Risi: Yeah, it is. It makes it so difficult.

[00:20:28] Adam Cox: So Michael's defense team tried to delay the civil case until after the criminal case has been determined, but the judge denies that request and rules that, the civil case has to go first, which is terrible news for Michael's defense because anything revealed in that civil case could then later be used in the criminal trial.

[00:20:46] Kyle Risi: Oh, sneaky. Sneaky.

[00:20:47] Adam Cox: Yeah. And that meant his entire reputation could be dragged through the mud for years costing millions before a criminal case even begins.

[00:20:56] Adam Cox: And then something, controversial happens because Jackson's [00:21:00] insurers, ~um, ~play a major role in negotiating and paying a settlement out to the Chandler.

[00:21:05] Kyle Risi: Wow. He has insurance for this.

[00:21:07] Adam Cox: Well, his, I guess his company, I guess a

[00:21:08] Kyle Risi: public liability, right?

[00:21:10] Adam Cox: Yeah. And reportedly that was over Jackson and his lawyers objections. So they settle the civil case out of court to avoid financial loss and prolonged damage to Michael's public image.

[00:21:22] Kyle Risi: Sure. You just want it to go away, right?

[00:21:24] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Regardless of whether or not you're innocent or guilty, let's say he's innocent, of course you would still want this to go away.

[00:21:29] Kyle Risi: Again, it's so tricky because you can see it's, you would say, oh, if someone's paid, settled outta court, they're clearly guilty. You normally get that kind of narrative or that stance.

[00:21:38] Kyle Risi: But actually he. He, he is a business.

[00:21:42] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:42] Kyle Risi: He is a brand and of course you have to think about that estate.

[00:21:46] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly. But the assumption is guilt. That's what everyone thinks because he paid in order to make a problem go away.

[00:21:53] Adam Cox: And so even though the civil and criminal cases are completely different, civil is about money and damages and I [00:22:00] guess a lower burden of proof, whereas a criminal case is about guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

[00:22:05] Kyle Risi: That's true. Yeah.

[00:22:06] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly. Now, behind the scenes, Michael is reportedly furious because he didn't fully control that decision, or at least that's what the public is led to believe. I guess we won't know for sure. Right?

[00:22:17] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:17] Adam Cox: The insurance company minimized the risk to Michael and the business. Right. And regardless of innocence, those that defend Jackson will say it helps his legal team because they can focus on winning the criminal case now.

[00:22:29] Adam Cox: Because if they both ran together, yeah, it would've cost so much more money and could've gone on for forever basically.

[00:22:35] Kyle Risi: So what I'm hearing from you is that this was a move more about, damage control. Or damage reduction. The damage is already done, but it's how severe is the damage gonna be?

[00:22:45] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Kyle Risi: And that's what this move sounds like.

[00:22:48] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:22:48] Adam Cox: So there are a couple of updates to this specific set of events that happened afterwards. One wouldn't be for another 10 years.

[00:22:56] Adam Cox: In 2004, the legal secretary to Evan Chandler's, [00:23:00] attorney at the time of the trial publishes a book called Redemption the Truth Behind the Michael Jackson Child Molestation allegation

[00:23:08] Kyle Risi: Go on.

[00:23:08] Adam Cox: And in it, she claims she witnessed everything, says the entire case was planned, step by step, an elaborate extortion scheme, which I do buy into.

[00:23:18] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:18] Adam Cox: And here's why.

[00:23:19] Adam Cox: Because six months after the settlement, the Chandler stop cooperating with the criminal investigation. And everything hinges on Jordan Chandler, right? 'cause we are, without him, there isn't much of a case.

[00:23:31] Adam Cox: And ultimately he refuses to testify. Now, if you wanted justice, sure, maybe you would seek compensation.

[00:23:38] Adam Cox: But you would also want that man behind bars if he had hurt your child.

[00:23:41] Adam Cox: Unless, of course, part of the deal or that 20 million deal is that they were not to testify, albeit it was later revealed that this settlement did not prevent the Chandler from testifying in the criminal case.

[00:23:53] Adam Cox: So for me, if the allegations were true and Jordan was telling the truth, what does that say about [00:24:00] choosing money over justice?

[00:24:01] Kyle Risi: Yes, I completely agree and it is complicated. I just don't know. I think that both things can be true.

[00:24:07] Kyle Risi: I think that he could have been molested, and I think that the father could have wanted to use as an opportunity to extort. I think they can both be true.

[00:24:16] Kyle Risi: And the reason why I say this is because abuse isn't always this horrific thing where you are left traumatized and bruised and attacked and wounded.

[00:24:26] Kyle Risi: It could be a situation where you buy, you are, in the scope of someone who's very powerful. They treat you very nicely. They do take advantage of you. They do have sex with you. They can coerce you. You come out the other end being completely unscathed. Mm-hmm. Not being like broken or whatever.

[00:24:44] Adam Cox: It wasn't violent or anywhere.

[00:24:46] Kyle Risi: It wasn't violent, but it's still. An abuse of trust and abuse of power.

[00:24:50] Adam Cox: Yes.

[00:24:51] Kyle Risi: And I think that could have been the situation. It's awful that Michael Jackson, let's say, has done this to a child, but it's not to say that he physically hurt the [00:25:00] child. The child may have came away with I, I dunno, not being,

[00:25:04] Adam Cox: I, I guess

[00:25:05] Kyle Risi: feeling like he has been abused

[00:25:09] Adam Cox: and or hurt,

[00:25:10] Kyle Risi: yeah. And it's so tricky because there is clearly a sexual element there.

[00:25:14] Adam Cox: Yes. And I think that's the thing. If these kids are they're wrapped up in like this make-believe world, or, they're at Neverland, they're going on all these trips and genuinely Michael is treating them well 99% of the time.

[00:25:28] Kyle Risi: Yes. Yeah.

[00:25:28] Adam Cox: Yeah. And perhaps can't distinguish at that age

[00:25:31] Adam Cox: what is wrong and what's well,

[00:25:33] Kyle Risi: exactly.

[00:25:33] Kyle Risi: And we might come under a lot of attack for that. But that comes from personal experience where I've been in a situation where like I was under the wing of, a couple guys and they were way older than me in their forties. And like they, gave me a sense of freedom. They gave me a sense of they just, I got a lot from them.

[00:25:50] Kyle Risi: But years later when I look back, I'm like, that was a clear abuse of trust and power in that sort, sort of dynamic.

[00:25:58] Kyle Risi: It was only years and years later when you [00:26:00] understand the dynamics between people who are older than you and younger, minus that you go, yeah, that's clearly a problem.

[00:26:06] Kyle Risi: But at the time I, maybe Jordan wasn't hurt.

[00:26:10] Adam Cox: Yeah. I guess it's done in a way that on reflection, like you said, coming away, you then start to question and go, actually that didn't feel right.

[00:26:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:26:18] Adam Cox: But the rest of the time is papered over with everything else that's wonderful about what's going on.

[00:26:23] Kyle Risi: Yeah. It's so tricky. And I can see how Jordan's dad would sit there and go, okay, clearly Jordan wasn't hurt. These things happened. But also a crime has happened, and I can capitalize on this. So the immediate response isn't, oh, I need to protect my child.

[00:26:37] Adam Cox: Yeah. And that's the bit I have a problem with.

[00:26:39] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:39] Adam Cox: And so police had interviewed a number of children during this investigation of the criminal, case, many of whom had spent significant time with Michael. Some, like I say, had shared rooms or beds, but police found no evidence that was sufficient enough that could be used in court.

[00:26:55] Adam Cox: So no witnesses, no testimony, no corroborating evidence. And without that, the case [00:27:00] collapses. And then, like I say, the Chandler, they did stop cooperating during that, investigation.

[00:27:06] Kyle Risi: And do we know why, specifically?

[00:27:08] Adam Cox: We dunno why, but bizarrely, just a couple years later in 1995, Jordan Chandler emancipates himself from both parents at the age of 15.

[00:27:18] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[00:27:19] Adam Cox: Now why the hell would a 15-year-old do that? Because. He's no longer legally under their control.

[00:27:26] Kyle Risi: And did he get a settlement out of interest?

[00:27:28] Adam Cox: Yeah, they got 20 million.

[00:27:30] Kyle Risi: Sure.

[00:27:31] Adam Cox: As a family.

[00:27:31] Kyle Risi: Now the only thing I can think of is like he's 15 at that point. It could be that, yeah, they got the settlement and maybe the parents are now squandering that money that should technically be Jordan's, right?

[00:27:43] Kyle Risi: And maybe he recognized that the only way, and remember when you have that kind of money, people flock around you. So you've got probably people,~ um,~ who probably wanna stake of that money and like, well, do you know what? I can help you get all that money. I can help you emancipate yourself from your parents.

[00:27:59] Adam Cox: [00:28:00] Possibly. Yeah. But then for a judge to grant that they have to prove some pretty, significant circumstances.

[00:28:08] Kyle Risi: Oh, interesting. And what did they find?

[00:28:09] Adam Cox: We dunno. I don't think that's actually revealed.

[00:28:11] Kyle Risi: I see.

[00:28:12] Adam Cox: But for me that's something serious that, that convinces a judge to say that he's happy, that you shouldn't remain under your parents' authority.

[00:28:20] Kyle Risi: Wow. Okay.

[00:28:20] Adam Cox: So was it because he realized that he had been manipulated and used in this? Or was he angry that his parents chose millions rather than protecting his wellbeing?

[00:28:29] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:28:29] Adam Cox: Or was it something else altogether? Or is it a combination of all of these things? I, we don't really know.

[00:28:35] Adam Cox: But in 2005, June Chandler does say in court that she hadn't spoken to her son in over a decade. So the relationship completely breaks down, which suggests this kind of deep resentment, I guess.

[00:28:47] Adam Cox: And then one year after emancipating from his parents, Jordan files a restraining order against his own father, alleging that he attacked him with a weight. And then interestingly, in 2009, just months after Michael [00:29:00] Jackson's death, Evan Chandler is found dead by suicide. Wow. And so whether that is just some weird coincidence

[00:29:06] Kyle Risi: mm-hmm.

[00:29:07] Adam Cox: But people find the timing's just suspicious enough to think that there's something else related to that.

[00:29:12] Kyle Risi: In what way? Like in terms of that he might have been, killed.

[00:29:15] Adam Cox: I guess that's one way I thought guilt maybe eventually come to him. It doesn't seem like the guy that would feel guilty

[00:29:20] Kyle Risi: feel guilty. Yeah. I don't think, I think people misunderstand how guilt can grab a person. Very rarely does it do that. You know, the, you're speaking from

[00:29:28] Adam Cox: experience.

[00:29:28] Kyle Risi: The claws are not big enough to latch itself on when it comes to guilt.

[00:29:33] Adam Cox: Yeah. So I think when you look at the full picture, you're not just looking at an allegation made by this family, you're looking at a family that clearly had some serious issues.

[00:29:42] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Do you know what it's so tricky because I think it is such a complicated situation where money is now involved.

[00:29:49] Adam Cox: ~Mm-hmm. ~

[00:29:49] Kyle Risi: Especially this 20 million payouts, and so that can complicate things way more.

[00:29:55] Kyle Risi: And twists kind of how people might interpret the things that are followed afterwards.

[00:29:59] Kyle Risi: That's true. The [00:30:00] emancipation, the suicide, the restraining order, there's $20 million at stake here, and it's about who controls that money.

[00:30:06] Adam Cox: Yeah. And I think it just, for me, it undermines any credibility or maybe not any, it undermines some credibility of what was said.

[00:30:15] Kyle Risi: It does, it certainly makes it difficult.

[00:30:17] Kyle Risi: And I know I keep pushing back on it because I do believe that Jordan was molested, and I think we touched upon this in the previous episode and it's because it's after this case that happened, a friend of mine, Terry, George, he for years was always vocal about when he was 13 years old, he had won a competition to interview Michael Jackson through the BBC.

[00:30:36] Kyle Risi: When he met up with Michael Jackson, they exchanged numbers and Michael Jackson following that interview would call him up at his house, like is a council house that he lived with, Addie's parents' house in Leeds.

[00:30:46] Kyle Risi: He would call him up and he'd be like, is Terry there? They would have a chat and stuff. And during those conversations, Michael Jackson would ask him really personal questions about did he masturbate? What did he think about when he did it? And that was never a secret amongst Terry [00:31:00] George and all of his friends

[00:31:01] Kyle Risi: And then remember this happened way before Joe Chandler, but then when this case hit the headlines, that's when someone in his circle then went to the papers.

[00:31:11] Kyle Risi: Really? And so every time an allegation came out about Michael Jackson here in the uk, the first person that the British tabloids would go to would be Terry George knocking on his door to find out like, what are your comments on this?

[00:31:25] Kyle Risi: For example.

[00:31:26] Adam Cox: Interesting.

[00:31:27] Kyle Risi: And so that is on the record, it was happening years before all this happened, like I think in the seventies.

[00:31:32] Adam Cox: So whilst there wasn't obviously physical abuse there, that was a very inappropriate conversation with a minor.

[00:31:38] Kyle Risi: 100%. And I think based on that timeline and based that this was out there long before all of this happened, says to me that there is a capacity for Michael Jackson to be inappropriate with a child.

[00:31:52] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:31:52] Kyle Risi: And so therefore, I believe. This is true. And we know that for a fact because he is letting young kids [00:32:00] sleep in his bed regardless of whether or not anything bad happened or whatever he's gone through. That is still inappropriate behavior.

[00:32:06] Adam Cox: Absolutely. And it's crazy that he doesn't seem to learn from that because what, we'll come onto that, but it didn't seem to stop him from behaving like that after this case.

[00:32:15] Kyle Risi: Sure. And it gets more complicated when you throw in the fact that he is Michael Jackson. He is the biggest superstar on the planet. You then all of a sudden have parents who are happy for their children to go into Michael Jackson's personal space because there's a potential benefit for them, whether or not it's like an association with Michael Jackson or they're physically getting something in return.

[00:32:40] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. And that is a free trip to Netherland, a free trip to Vegas. That's exactly what happened to June. That's exactly how they benefited.

[00:32:47] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:32:47] Kyle Risi: And the next thing, the way that scales up and it makes sense is you've got this very eager guy dad who would like to make a big quick buck from it. And so he uses [00:33:00] that to extort Michael Jackson. And again, that's not the same as the abuse not happening.

[00:33:04] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Kyle Risi: It could still happen and he could still take the opportunity.

[00:33:07] Adam Cox: Yeah, absolutely. Right there. Jordan himself, he actually disappears from the public view. I guess he wants to go back to a normal life.

[00:33:16] Kyle Risi: He wants to enjoys 20 mil.

[00:33:17] Adam Cox: Yeah, I guess he, he would be. But one thing we haven't really spoken about is Michael Jackson's romantic relationships.

[00:33:23] Adam Cox: Now they're very few and far between. At one time he supposedly had a relationship with Brooke Shields, but she said, uh, she felt it was more asexual. Or he was more asexual. 'cause he is always quite distant in that respect.

[00:33:35] Kyle Risi: Sure.

[00:33:36] Adam Cox: Interestingly, the romantic relationships that we do know of, mostly happens after the court cases.

[00:33:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Like a pr move. Do you

[00:33:43] Adam Cox: think I, I do wonder if it is damage control, because it shows or it tries to prove that he's not a pedophile.

[00:33:50] Adam Cox: Look, he's married to a woman.

[00:33:51] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And, am I right in saying the most famous one, and I'm sure you just about to come onto it, is, Priscilla Presley.

[00:33:58] Adam Cox: Lisa Marie Presley.

[00:33:59] Kyle Risi: That's what I [00:34:00] said. That's exactly what I said.

[00:34:03] Adam Cox: Yes. I was just gonna say that there are rumors that he was involved with various different men, but that is speculation. Ooh. And never corroborated. But there was this speculation about his sexuality. So were these marriages to curb that, or the allegations? Probably both.

[00:34:21] Kyle Risi: This is the first time I ever heard of the term beard. ' cause of Michael Jackson really. And the Lisa Marie Presley. But do we know who the, suspected, male relationships that he had with anyone that we might know?

[00:34:32] Adam Cox: I don't think that they were necessarily famous, but they were, I think one was like connected to a doctor or some kind of physician or whatever. They're just these people. I didn't recognize the names.

[00:34:41] Adam Cox: So no.

[00:34:42] Kyle Risi: So no, nobody we care about.

[00:34:45] Adam Cox: So Lisa Marie Presley, which is obviously Elvis's daughter, she marries, Michael Jackson in 1994, just 20 days after she gets divorced herself. At the time, it'd only just been a few months since the civil lawsuit was settled.

[00:34:59] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:34:59] Adam Cox: [00:35:00] The criminal lawsuit was still ongoing at the time, but it's short-lived because they separate in December and then they finalize the divorce next year.

[00:35:08] Kyle Risi: Oh, do we know, does she ever speak about what the marriage was like?

[00:35:11] Adam Cox: She says, that Michael was always a troubled man, but a loving man. She says that he was consumed by prescription drugs and was surrounded by people that she just couldn't break through to him. Interesting. Um, she even says that in one of their final conversations, 'cause they still kept in touch.

[00:35:27] Adam Cox: He told her that someone was going to kill him for his music catalog. So that was the one that he obviously pinched or got from my, uh, Paul McCartney.

[00:35:37] Kyle Risi: Paul McCartney. It's Paul. If I die, just know it's Paul McCartney there with Linda and their sausages going, gotta

[00:35:45] Adam Cox: get him.

[00:35:45] Adam Cox: We gotta get Michael.

[00:35:46] Adam Cox: And then there's the second marriage, which was completely different. It was to a woman, called Debbie Rowe. Now she was a nurse in the office of one of Michael's dermatologists.

[00:35:54] Kyle Risi: Oh.

[00:35:55] Adam Cox: They marry in 1996 and their first child is Prince, then they have [00:36:00] Paris in 1998.

[00:36:01] Kyle Risi: Hold the bone. They were married.

[00:36:04] Adam Cox: Yeah. ~I ~

[00:36:04] Kyle Risi: I honestly thought it was just sperm donor surrogacy thing.

[00:36:09] Adam Cox: Ah. So I think the first two children were. With, Debbie. Mm-hmm. Um, but then the third child

[00:36:16] Kyle Risi: blankie

[00:36:16] Adam Cox: blanket or BGB, that's how he's known now. That's his name. B-G-B-B-I-G-I.

[00:36:24] Kyle Risi: Oh, amazing.

[00:36:25] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:36:25] Kyle Risi: I love it.

[00:36:26] Adam Cox: That was through a donor as far as I'm aware.

[00:36:28] Kyle Risi: Sure. So he actually married this chick because I remember seeing pictures of her and she's just such a soccer mom. She's just so plain, not glamorous at all. You would just think, oh, he's hired her to have the babies.

[00:36:40] Adam Cox: And that's what most people think. Is this marriage transactional because,

[00:36:43] Kyle Risi: but clearly it's important for him

[00:36:44] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:36:45] Kyle Risi: To have been married in order to have these children.

[00:36:47] Adam Cox: Well, he's a Jehovah's Witness,

[00:36:48] Kyle Risi: but Yeah. Do you think that is the,

[00:36:50] Adam Cox: is

[00:36:50] Kyle Risi: the thing

[00:36:51] Adam Cox: that's an element of it also shows this kind of love story. I guess it helps with pr, but he also just wanted it to be a father, which is what Debbie says later.

[00:36:59] Adam Cox: [00:37:00] They divorced in 2000 and there is a settlement of $8 million.

[00:37:03] Kyle Risi: Wow. As late as 2000 that they divorced.

[00:37:07] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. Uh, custody was initially given to Michael, which is interesting to go to the father. Right.

[00:37:12] Kyle Risi: Well, he's got the means, right.

[00:37:14] Adam Cox: Yeah. Of course. There's that. But he's he's traveling around the world and all that sort of stuff.

[00:37:17] Adam Cox: He's not a stay-at-home dad, is he?

[00:37:19] Kyle Risi: No. But like you can still have a sense of normalcy when you are that rich in that famous, you can have tutors, you can have nurses. You give the kids the best life ever.

[00:37:28] Adam Cox: Yeah, of course. You can provide for them much more, I would say. Yeah,

[00:37:31] Kyle Risi: sure. And stability doesn't always have to be stay at home in the suburbs.

[00:37:35] Kyle Risi: No, you can still have the stability on the road.

[00:37:38] Adam Cox: True. That's very Neanderthal of me.

[00:37:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Adam. Family dynamics can take many forms.

[00:37:44] Adam Cox: Then comes the third child, prince Michael II Blanker, or now known as bg. Um, so he's born via surrogacy. And then there's that odd moment back in 2002 in Berlin where Michael steps out onto a balcony of a hotel holding his infant son. And for a brief second, he dangles [00:38:00] him over the edge and literally like the crowd screams, there's flashes. It's all over the news, isn't it, with within hours.

[00:38:07] Adam Cox: And he later says it's was a terrible mistake. But more than that, it shows a bit of a glimpse into a person who wasn't fully grounded, because by the early 2000, Michael Jackson was a father of three, twice divorced, owned the most valuable music catalog in the world. Mm-hmm. And a man whose body and mine was quietly deteriorating. He had vitiligo lupus, he was having disease surgeries, and he had chronic insomnia.

[00:38:30] Kyle Risi: He was also at this point, wearing his mask a lot of the time.

[00:38:33] Adam Cox: Yeah. Quite possibly. Yeah.

[00:38:35] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:35] Adam Cox: And so things were not about to get better for Michael. He makes the mistake of doing a documentary with Martin Bashir.

[00:38:42] Kyle Risi: Yes. Oh, I love that documentary.

[00:38:45] Adam Cox: And we know how that turned out for Princess Diana. Uh, beshe had mocked up a bank statement to deceive the princess playing into her paranoia and fear coercing her into doing that interview.

[00:38:55] Adam Cox: Now, I'm not suggesting he did that to Michael, but we have to question Bashir's [00:39:00] ethics when doing this documentary.

[00:39:01] Kyle Risi: Certainly, however,

[00:39:04] Adam Cox: it was pretty damn,

[00:39:05] Kyle Risi: however, no. However, with, princess Diana, like she came out on top with that regardless of whether or not his Underhandedness was involved or what degree of Yeah, he shouldn't have done it, but that was a brilliant piece of pr.

[00:39:18] Kyle Risi: But it's because of the portions that she was able to control, right?

[00:39:22] Adam Cox: Yeah. But the fact that she was almost tri, yes, she did come out on top, but it obviously wasn't. It didn't help her relationship with the royal family.

[00:39:30] Kyle Risi: Oh no, absolutely not. And the thing is though, like yes. Had he not shown her those fake, bank statements, would she have done it? I dunno.

[00:39:38] Adam Cox: We wouldn't have got to learn so much about her, I don't think. Yeah. And what it was like to be in that marriage.

[00:39:43] Kyle Risi: Sure. Exactly. So are you gonna tell me a bit about this documentary?

[00:39:47] Adam Cox: Yes. It was called Living with Michael Jackson. Now Martin Beshir had eight months of access inside Netherland Insider Life. And within it, there's a moment where Jackson is sitting beside a 13-year-old boy [00:40:00] called Gavin Arviso.

[00:40:01] Adam Cox: He's a cancer patient that had met Michael a few years earlier and they're holding hands. And Jackson is questioned about whether sharing his bed with children is, acceptable.

[00:40:12] Kyle Risi: Ooh. I mean, this is a kid that is sick and is probably terminal. This is, I don't know. It just feels like this is not the right time to be asking those types of questions because it's not the same. There's, yes. Clearly Michael has a very compassionate side and this kid is clearly terminal and very sick. And then he's asking about sexual abuse allegations.

[00:40:31] Adam Cox: Well, he doesn't answer. That I think in front of him, I think he's just saying, is it right to share a bed with a child? Which, oh, what does

[00:40:37] Kyle Risi: he say?

[00:40:37] Adam Cox: Which you're right in saying maybe not the right time. Yeah. Picky moment. But so Michael says, why can't you share a bed? It's one of the most loving things to do, which doesn't come across in the, the best way.

[00:40:48] Adam Cox: But for me, it just shows someone, I dunno, actually, could it show someone who's just so innocent and naive, that just doesn't really understand or compute how someone would interpret that differently?

[00:40:58] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[00:40:59] Adam Cox: I feel like [00:41:00] it, that is Michael's mindset.

[00:41:02] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[00:41:02] Adam Cox: But to anyone else, it's what the hell are you doing?

[00:41:05] Kyle Risi: Exactly. It's because the rest of society has been shaped by what had happened during the Satanic panic and the aftermath of that. Where we become so averse to any concept of a man having close proximity to a child who he isn't related to. Yeah. So we are shaped by that.

[00:41:22] Kyle Risi: Whereas Michael is shaped by his history. And remember, Michael doesn't grow up in our world. He grows up very isolated, concentrated in this kind of, this world of whatever happens to him. That shapes him into what he is. So he's not touched by the same cloth that we are.

[00:41:38] Adam Cox: No.

[00:41:38] Kyle Risi: So I get from a sense that he would sit there and genuinely. Candidly, earnestly believe that one of the most loving things you can do is share your bed with another human being.

[00:41:48] Adam Cox: Yeah. I can see how he would believe it. But for the 15 million viewers in the UK and 20 million in the us

[00:41:55] Kyle Risi: yeah,

[00:41:55] Adam Cox: It causes some serious questions.

[00:41:57] Kyle Risi: Sure. And also, you gotta remember what's the [00:42:00] purpose of this documentary is there's a probably a PR element to it as well. Yeah. He thinks that this is going to show him in a different light, so it's very calculated. But the fact that he misses the beat on so many of these things, questions, shows that is how he thinks.

[00:42:15] Adam Cox: Yeah. Because for him, he's got nothing to hide or that's how it seems.

[00:42:18] Adam Cox: He's trying to paint this picture that it's quite wholesome, but the guy who's just had, you know, a few years earlier, gone through all these allegations and you haven't changed your behavior, you haven't learned from, actually, do you know what, maybe that isn't right, or I'm not gonna be as open about it, but I guess for Michael, he's like, well, if I be completely open about it, it's the best thing to do.

[00:42:41] Kyle Risi: Is that, do you think that's a potential strategy, is to mask everything by coming across as this clearly differently wired human being inside his brain? Do you know what I mean? Do you think that's the strategy?

[00:42:53] Adam Cox: I don't think it is with him. I dunno if he would be that manipulative in terms of trying to paint a [00:43:00] different picture of him.

[00:43:00] Adam Cox: I think he's just wired differently.

[00:43:02] Kyle Risi: But then there's also, remember there's clearly a difference between Michael Jackson and the Michael Jackson company. And it could be, there's the shots being called or instructed by the people who are controlling it. That's just me being speculative.

[00:43:14] Adam Cox: Yeah, potentially.

[00:43:16] Adam Cox: But I think what we're kind of seeing is he's a bit like Peter Pan himself in terms of like, he doesn't seem like he's ever really grown up properly.

[00:43:23] Kyle Risi: No.

[00:43:23] Adam Cox: But was he doing the same thing to kids? I guess trying to, I dunno. Take advantage of them. And like you say, his whole background is completely different to us. One time he even hires out a supermarket, which is populated with people he knew so he could see what it was like to shop for food.

[00:43:41] Adam Cox: So it just shows his version of normal is completely different to us.

[00:43:46] Kyle Risi: Yeah. It is strange that's how famous he's

[00:43:51] Kyle Risi: Because remember he was been famous since he was a kid, right?

Yeah.

[00:43:53] Kyle Risi: Diana went through a similar thing where she was so amused by this idea of sitting in a [00:44:00] pub and she was desperate to order a pint because she's never ordered a pint of beer before.

[00:44:04] Kyle Risi: And she was like, can I do it? How do I do it to show me?

[00:44:07] Kyle Risi: And Kahan was like, are you serious? She dunno how to order a pint. She was like, no, I've never done it before.

[00:44:12] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:44:13] Kyle Risi: And so I get it. Michael Jackson's probably more over the extreme, 'cause at least Diana, there was a point where she wasn't Princess of Wales, she was Yeah. Aristocratic, but

[00:44:24] Adam Cox: she wasn't known by the world.

[00:44:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And Michael Jackson's always been in that situation, but Wild hired out a supermarket.

[00:44:32] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:44:33] Adam Cox: And so this documentary by Bashir caused this huge public outrage, a lot of media scrutiny and then authorities didn't have any choice but to start looking quite closely at Jackson again.

[00:44:44] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:44] Adam Cox: Particularly with his relations with Gavin Arviso, the cancer patient because he and his family then come forward with allegations after the documentary airs saying that he was also molested.

[00:44:56] Kyle Risi: Oh. And I'm assuming we're gonna go [00:45:00] through. Motivations for wanting to sue Michael Jackson, and I'm assuming it might be, well, we wanna save our son and we need money for the treatment. I bet that would be an element.

[00:45:10] Adam Cox: Well, let's see. Because at first Gavin says nothing inappropriate happened, but then he changes his account. Now Michael has been supporting the family financially he invites them to Netherland multiple times. They stay for months.

[00:45:23] Adam Cox: But behind the scenes, things seem to deteriorate a bit because according to staff, the family becomes difficult, unruly, damaging property, bringing other members to stay essentially.

[00:45:34] Adam Cox: And at one point around 15 children are living on the ranch, and eventually they're asked to leave,

[00:45:39] Kyle Risi: and is Michael there at those ranch at, at the time? Or was he like away and he's just giving them free reign?

[00:45:43] Adam Cox: I get the sense that he's not always there.

[00:45:45] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that sounds like it to me. So you're messing up my spaceman.

[00:45:48] Adam Cox: And so that's when this, the tone changes from praise of Michael to allegations and soon after Neverland is raided. And so they're looking again for computers, photographs, [00:46:00] books, or seized, but no physical evidence is found, no illicit material.

[00:46:05] Adam Cox: And so despite that, Michael is still arrested and he's charged with multiple felonies. And this time there's no settlement. He refuses. 'cause now it's about something else. Vindication clearing his name once and for all.

[00:46:17] Adam Cox: So the case goes to trial and it's the trial of the people versus Jackson.

[00:46:21] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[00:46:21] Adam Cox: And outside the courtroom it's chaos because there's hundreds of fans, there's cameras everywhere. It's live TV showing like giving updates. Even Michael Jackson impersonators are turning up

[00:46:32] Kyle Risi: really. And what is the sentiment at this period of time largely, where are people weighted towards? Are they, is it evenly split between people thinking he's completely innocent? Or is there a slightly more weight towards people going, he did this? What's the general sentiment?

[00:46:48] Adam Cox: I think it's still pretty divided.

[00:46:50] Adam Cox: I dunno if it's 50 50, but there's enough supporters on either side. Probably I would suspect more in favor. I would think of supporting [00:47:00] him but then I guess there's even more revelations that keep coming out. And I think just over time he probably is losing more fans. And he's gaining

[00:47:07] Kyle Risi: interesting.

[00:47:08] Adam Cox: So it's a bit of a star-studded event because Macauley Culkin turns up, he takes a stand and says, uh, clearly nothing inappropriate ever happened with him and Michael Jackson.

[00:47:17] Kyle Risi: And if he did, I've got all these booby traps that I've got set up, like with a, a flaming, bowling ball and these spikes, and I've got a spider that I can just kind of release into his car.

[00:47:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah, he wouldn't do, he wouldn't dare.

[00:47:29] Adam Cox: He's not a kid at this point. No,

[00:47:31] Kyle Risi: that is true.

[00:47:33] Adam Cox: Then the prosecution presents their case that Gavin Arviso was shown adult material, was given alcohol, Michael used to call it Jesus juice, and described graphic behavior with Michael masturbating in front of him.

[00:47:46] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[00:47:47] Adam Cox: In total, around 140 witnesses take the stand. Quite a few still defending Jackson. But then another guy, Wade Robson. Now you men may remember that we mentioned that name before He was a kid at the time.

[00:47:58] Adam Cox: He had been spending time with [00:48:00] Michael Jackson. He basically comes out and corroborates like what Culley Culkin had said, like nothing had happened as a kid, right? And he says this under oath. Remember that under oath?

[00:48:10] Kyle Risi: Fine. That's important guys.

[00:48:12] Adam Cox: We are, we'll come back to that.

[00:48:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah,

[00:48:13] Adam Cox: the majority of the witnesses, they all support Michael.

[00:48:16] Adam Cox: Some staff members say his behavior felt unusual, but actually, there's nothing to these allegations.

[00:48:21] Adam Cox: And so with the defense, they're like looking into the credibility of the R VSOs, particularly Gavin's mother, Janet. Now, years earlier, in 1998, there's another case that the family is caught shoplifting at JC Penney's. Security detains them. But then the story changes that Janet claims that she was violently assaulted, even sexually assaulted by security guards.

[00:48:44] Kyle Risi: Okay, so a, this family gets in a lot of trouble for a stop. They are shoplifting, they probably are quite poor.

[00:48:52] Kyle Risi: But what you're saying here is that she was caught shoplifting and she's thrown an accusation that the security guard had molested her, [00:49:00] which is showing a pattern of behavior that she's likely to potentially repeat in the future.

[00:49:04] Adam Cox: Yep, that's right. That's one thing. She also, is accused of giving her children acting lessons, preparing for this case.

[00:49:12] Kyle Risi: Oh, for this case specifically,

[00:49:14] Adam Cox: oh, no, sorry. For the JCP Penny case, essentially to, back up what was happening.

[00:49:18] Kyle Risi: Sure.

[00:49:19] Adam Cox: JC Penney settles $152,000, but later the truth unravels that her husband admits to abusing her and hitting her. But later the truth unravels that as actually the husband that had hit her, and Janet does, admit under oath that it was him, not the guards.

[00:49:35] Adam Cox: Wow. So I guess it, it changes this picture because the family's credibility once again, is drawn under scrutiny. Can we trust these people? Which of course, Michael's defense team are gonna try of

[00:49:48] Kyle Risi: course,

[00:49:49] Adam Cox: unpick every single thing.

[00:49:51] Kyle Risi: That's their job.

[00:49:52] Adam Cox: But I do feel like they are exploiting to a degree this case. But again, like you say, doesn't mean to say that the abuse [00:50:00] didn't happen.

[00:50:00] Kyle Risi: True, yes. It is so tricky and I now appreciate properly. It is a situation that you can be very divided on.

[00:50:09] Kyle Risi: And hey, that's how you, rather than politics guys, like, are you, especially for our American listeners, are you democrat? Are you Republican? Should be what side of the fence do fall on? Did you do it? Did he not do it?

[00:50:21] Adam Cox: Exactly. And also the timeline of the abuse don't quite add up. Gavin gave conflicting versions of the events. Uh, the jury is asked to believe that nothing had happened between Gavin and Michael for three years, and then a month after the documentary airs. In that exact moment when the world is watching Michael and these investigations are underway, that is when the abuse happened.

[00:50:42] Adam Cox: So the timeline becomes a major problem for the prosecution. And some jurors, they say that they found it hard to believe the, that their family's case.

[00:50:50] Kyle Risi: Sure.

[00:50:51] Adam Cox: So in the end, the jury makes their final decision. Michael Jackson is found not guilty of all accounts. Every single one.

[00:50:58] Kyle Risi: Wow. Completely [00:51:00] exonerated here.

[00:51:00] Adam Cox: Yeah. No ambiguity whatsoever.

[00:51:03] Kyle Risi: Ugh.

[00:51:04] Adam Cox: But it doesn't feel like a victory. 'cause the trial has gone on for nearly two years, costing tens of millions. And it's left Michael physically and psychologically destroyed. He enters the courtroom at points weighing less than 120 pounds. He's unable to eat Whoa. Sleep. And he's only able to use proper fo propofol. I dunno if I'm saying that drug right.

[00:51:23] Kyle Risi: Prop ful

[00:51:24] Adam Cox: to, to help him sleep essentially.

[00:51:26] Kyle Risi: I see. Okay. So yeah, he is. But 120 pounds, that is a small man.

[00:51:32] Adam Cox: Yes, absolutely.

[00:51:34] Adam Cox: After the verdict, Michael Jackson leaves,~ uh,~ the courthouse. He leaves Santa Maria. Effectively he leaves the United States. He then lives abroad for a couple of years. Really? Including island? Yeah.

[00:51:44] Kyle Risi: Oh wow. I did not know that. Where else does he live?

[00:51:47] Adam Cox: Bahrain and some other rented homes, I dunno where. Okay.

[00:51:50] Kyle Risi: So like the Middle East, but Ireland as well.

[00:51:52] Adam Cox: Interesting. Yeah. But he never really returns to Neverland apparently. So something he built as a sanctuary, it's now been destroyed.

[00:51:59] Kyle Risi: Well, I [00:52:00] mean, if you take the stance that he's innocent

[00:52:03] Kyle Risi: And you've got all these people using him to as an opportunity, sure. That's gonna be tainted, right?

[00:52:09] Kyle Risi: Guaranteed. Because what is you've done essentially is you've taken something that is in his mind, supposed to be very innocent.

[00:52:15] Kyle Risi: Wholesome and you've tainted it with this era of sexual abuse. That's, again, assuming he's innocent, is very disgusting or repugnant. To a lot of people.

[00:52:26] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:52:26] Kyle Risi: And I imagine, again, if he's innocent, would be also discussing or repugnant to someone like him as well.

[00:52:31] Adam Cox: Yes, absolutely.

[00:52:32] Adam Cox: Or maybe he's now finally learned his lesson and going, do you know what, perhaps I shouldn't invite kids back there anymore.

[00:52:37] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly.

[00:52:38] Adam Cox: The other thing is he's not making any money at this point in time. His debt has reached almost 500 million, which is absurd. What,

[00:52:47] Kyle Risi: From what do we know?

[00:52:49] Adam Cox: Decades of spending. Neverland, the upkeep, the staff, the zoo, the constant travel, all the legal costs that he's had with these allegations over the years.

[00:52:57] Adam Cox: Sure. And just his general [00:53:00] lifestyle. And he is also borrowed money against a share of his Sony catalog.

[00:53:04] Kyle Risi: I see.

[00:53:05] Adam Cox: And at high interest rates as well. So on paper, he's one of the most wealthiest people alive, but in reality,

[00:53:11] Kyle Risi: he's also hemorrhaging the money, right?

[00:53:13] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:53:13] Kyle Risi: Because it all costs money to run these things.

[00:53:16] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:53:16] Kyle Risi: I, one of the standout moments from the Martin Bashir, documentary, from what I can remember is there is this scene where Martin Beshear is following Michael Jackson through a mall. I'm assuming in Middle East somewhere. And it's really opulent. It's got green marble kind of pillars and walls and just, it's just gorgeous. And he's walking through this like very expensive shop.

[00:53:38] Adam Cox: I think I know the scene that you're talking about.

[00:53:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And he is just the more, less shut I think.

[00:53:44] Adam Cox: So he probably, again pays for it to be shut.

[00:53:45] Kyle Risi: I can't remember. But either way, he's going through and he's saying, yeah, we'll take two of those. Oh, that's quite nice. I'll have that please. And Adam, I'm talking, how much is that? That giant bars? Oh, it's, $500,000 for the pair. Okay. Yeah, I have those. And actually I [00:54:00] saw a couple that are like in white or something in the front,~ um,~ throw those two in as well.

[00:54:03] Kyle Risi: And he's oh, I quite like that horse. And he's just walking through and he is just picking out things. And these things are like tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars in one go.

[00:54:13] Kyle Risi: And I can't remember exactly what Martin Behe says, but he comments on like, how do you feel about just spending that much money on a whim?

[00:54:20] Kyle Risi: And he's just like, well, it's just how it is.

[00:54:23] Adam Cox: That's crazy. That's like us having 10 pounds and going into a sweetie shop.

[00:54:30] Kyle Risi: Is it at a, is it the same?

[00:54:32] Adam Cox: Well, not now expensive,

[00:54:34] Kyle Risi: right?

[00:54:34] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:54:34] Kyle Risi: But yeah, he has just got so much money that he, it doesn't even matter how much it is, but the fact Adam as well, that there are shops out there where on display. There is a giant bars that's 500,000 for the pair, just casually in the middle of the store.

[00:54:50] Adam Cox: I feel like you're really sad about this. Like, why can't you afford a

[00:54:53] Kyle Risi: 500,000? Why you, why are you not sad about that, Adam?

[00:54:56] Adam Cox: I don't want a giant v that's that much money.

[00:54:58] Kyle Risi: But if you have [00:55:00] the property to put it, you'd be like, do you know what? That would look really great. Just in the entrance way to like the maid scullery.

[00:55:05] Adam Cox: No, I'd put it into some investments. I'm like, Ross and

[00:55:08] Kyle Risi: friends. Yeah, Ross and friends. So boring. But now I'm just gonna squander it away. So I imagine based to circle back to what you were saying, yeah. When you are spending like that with no concern

[00:55:20] Kyle Risi: Because this is after the court case, right? The Mars Beshe interview, yeah. You would ~be, ~be hemorrhaging money.

[00:55:24] Adam Cox: Yeah. And he's probably making some money from that documentary.

[00:55:27] Adam Cox: Of course. But it's around this point in time when obviously he's got a lot of debt that the deal arrives for the, this is it tour.

[00:55:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I remember this very vividly. What year is this? Can I, can I take a guess?

[00:55:41] Adam Cox: Go on.

[00:55:41] Kyle Risi: Is it 2008?

[00:55:43] Adam Cox: It is, yes.

[00:55:44] Kyle Risi: Yes. 'cause I was, I think my first year of university and I remember seeing this being announced on the B, B, C and very.

[00:55:52] Kyle Risi: Vividly. I remember the hair. He had a lot of hair. He had a brilliant man of hair, dark sunglasses. And for the first [00:56:00] time in a long time, we saw him without his mask. We saw his nose. And apparently he was clip on at that point.

[00:56:06] Adam Cox: No.

[00:56:07] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I dunno if that's true or not.

[00:56:08] Adam Cox: Probably another rumor, but we all buy into it.

[00:56:11] Kyle Risi: Could you could take it off?

[00:56:12] Adam Cox: Take it off,

[00:56:13] Kyle Risi: yeah.

[00:56:13] Adam Cox: Clip on nose.

[00:56:14] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:56:15] Adam Cox: Nose gross.

[00:56:16] Kyle Risi: It was a prosthesis nose because he had a big gaping hole in it.

[00:56:19] Adam Cox: Wow.

[00:56:19] Adam Cox: But yeah, so around this time the tour is announced and he's introduced, to a couple of men, Thomas Barrack and Philip Schutz. They're the owners of Ag Live, the second largest concert promoter in the world.

[00:56:32] Kyle Risi: They own O2, don't they?

[00:56:34] Adam Cox: I don't know. Maybe I'll take a word for it.

[00:56:36] Kyle Risi: Okay. Please don't unverified.

[00:56:39] Adam Cox: So a deal begins to take shape and in March, 2009, Jackson appears at the O2 Arena in London. Between three and 7,000 fans are waiting around 350 journalists. He arrives, but he is 90 minutes late. But he steps onto the stage.

[00:56:54] Kyle Risi: There was 50,000, but they all left.

[00:56:58] Adam Cox: Yeah. They needed to leaving

[00:56:58] Kyle Risi: three,

[00:56:59] Adam Cox: they needed their [00:57:00] dinner.

[00:57:00] Adam Cox: When he finally steps onto the stage, he looks quite thin, quite fragile, but he tells the crowd, this is it. This is really it. The final cards and call.

[00:57:08] Kyle Risi: I swear to God, this is it. Guys like five months. And he was

[00:57:12] Adam Cox: right.

[00:57:13] Kyle Risi: Oh my God. Yeah. That's dark. But like El John did the same thing and he is like, I'm not gonna tour anymore.

[00:57:18] Kyle Risi: And then five years later I'll come back this is the final one. This is final. Final,

[00:57:22] Adam Cox: the final. It's like share as well. Don't you know, whenever anyone that's in their seventies, they're like, ah, I said it would, that was the last one, but I really need to pay for these new boobs.

[00:57:32] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So this is the IT tour.

[00:57:34] Adam Cox: Yes,

[00:57:35] Kyle Risi: this is it.

[00:57:35] Adam Cox: And it was gonna be a huge concert, which was planned for July. And initially Jackson agreed to 10 concerts, but within days it's expanded to 50.

[00:57:43] Adam Cox: Now there is speculation that Michael didn't want to do as many as 50 shows. He was forced into doing that. But again, speculation.

[00:57:51] Adam Cox: Now roughly, this

[00:57:52] Kyle Risi: is like, how am I gonna get out of this? I know

[00:57:54] Adam Cox: now that's dark. Now roughly 750,000 [00:58:00] tickets are sold and around $85 million is generated before single performance.

[00:58:06] Kyle Risi: And how much does he get from that?

[00:58:07] Adam Cox: Well, he gets around or in advance of about $30 million. Wow.

[00:58:11] Adam Cox: Which must, is gonna tie him over.

[00:58:13] Kyle Risi: Is it though, because. You said like he was in debt of up to 500 million.

[00:58:17] Adam Cox: Yeah. I guess he just needs to do this for a few months, then he'll get the rest of the money and whatever royalties, you know? Sure. And they're sorting him out like a mansion in Holby Hills.

[00:58:25] Adam Cox: He's got all his loans and living expenses covered. He's fine.

[00:58:28] Kyle Risi: Holby Hills, that's back in Los Angeles, right?

[00:58:31] Adam Cox: Yes. Obviously the show's in London. I'm sure he gets put up in London, but I guess whilst he's maybe flying back and forth.

[00:58:38] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Is this kind of supposed to be something very similar to like a residency in Las Vegas where you would've got, get Adele and she would live in Vegas for a certain period of time?

[00:58:47] Kyle Risi: She would commit to like a hundred shows. Celine Dion did it. This the kind of the equivalent before the O2 in London.

[00:58:53] Adam Cox: I think it's over a shorter period though, right?

[00:58:55] Kyle Risi: Sure. Yeah. Whereas the resident as Michael Jackson, you can't get him to commit to

[00:58:58] Adam Cox: like a year

[00:58:59] Kyle Risi: No. A, a dinner. [00:59:00]

[00:59:00] Adam Cox: Yeah. Whereas yeah, the stuff in Las Vegas that's like for a year, isn't it?

[00:59:03] Kyle Risi: Yeah, years and years.

[00:59:05] Adam Cox: So the stakes are pretty enormous. And for a EG, a successful run could generate hundreds of millions. A global tour is projected at like 450 million or more.

[00:59:16] Adam Cox: So, wow. Yeah. They're gonna earn a lot of money from this.

[00:59:20] Kyle Risi: Out of interest, and you probably don't know, but just your opinion, do you think there is a degree of exploitation happening here against Michael Because they can potentially see that clearly? He's in a lot of debt. And he's clearly a response person would go, he's not equipped for this, but we can exploit him.

[00:59:39] Kyle Risi: Do you think that there is a degree of that?

[00:59:41] Adam Cox: We will come onto that.

[00:59:42] Kyle Risi: Oh, wow. Okay. So you have planned ahead.

[00:59:45] Adam Cox: Yep. More exploitation, Kyle. So what I'm gonna say, well, what I think, so there's definitely a degree.

[00:59:50] Adam Cox: So behind the scenes things are already going wrong though. 'cause before the announcement, ag CEO, Randy Phillips sends an email describing Jackson [01:00:00] as locked in his room. He's drunk, he's despondent.

[01:00:02] Adam Cox: And Phillips later testifies that he had to physically get him out of his room, that he's screamed at him, even slapped him just to get him moving.

[01:00:11] Adam Cox: So

[01:00:11] Kyle Risi: who, who he slapped Michael Jackson?

[01:00:13] Adam Cox: Yes. Yeah.

[01:00:14] Kyle Risi: Wow. You don't do that.

[01:00:16] Adam Cox: And that was just to get Michael on stage to announce his comeback tour. Whoa.

[01:00:23] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Just to announce it.

[01:00:26] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:00:26] Kyle Risi: It's like, bitch, we are doing this. We've committed. You've got your $30 million. Like Yeah, but

[01:00:31] Adam Cox: which

[01:00:32] Kyle Risi: is, I spent that on prescription drugs,

[01:00:34] Adam Cox: which is why he was probably like 90 minutes late.

[01:00:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:00:36] Adam Cox: So rehearsals begin in spring 2009.

[01:00:39] Adam Cox: On good days, he is still Michael Jackson. The dancers see it, the musicians feel it moments where everything locks in. It's his movement, his voice, his presence. He's the greatest performer of his generation. He's a

[01:00:52] Kyle Risi: glimmer of him still in there.

[01:00:53] Adam Cox: Yeah. But on bad days, he is definitely not that. He is incoherent. He's [01:01:00] cold. When the room is warm, he's trembling. He's forgetting his choreography that he has done a thousand times. Wow. And he's losing weight and he's not sleeping,

[01:01:08] Kyle Risi: losing even more weight. He was 120 pounds before.

[01:01:12] Adam Cox: Yeah, that was at the trial, so he might have put on a bit of weight since then. Oh, okay. Um, so on June 19th, 2009, six days before his death show, director Kenny Ortega sends an email and the subject line is trouble at the front.

[01:01:25] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[01:01:26] Adam Cox: He describes finding Jackson lost, incoherent, cold to the touch, trembling and unable to perform.

[01:01:33] Adam Cox: And he wraps Michael in these blankets and tries to feed him some food. And he writes, there are strong signs of paranoia, anxiety, and obsessive like behavior.

[01:01:43] Adam Cox: I think the very best thing we can do is to get a top psychiatrist to evaluate him. ASAP. Wow. Others are even more direct. And an associate producer says plainly, Michael is dying. He needs to be put in a hospital.

[01:01:56] Adam Cox: Wow.

[01:01:56] Adam Cox: But the response is shut down. Philip replies. It [01:02:00] is critical that neither you, me, or anyone, becomes amateur psychiatrists or physicians.

[01:02:05] Adam Cox: Instead, attention turns to Jackson's personal doctor, a guy called Conrad Murray.

[01:02:11] Kyle Risi: Okay. Why?

[01:02:12] Adam Cox: Well, he's described as an extremely successful, totally unbiased and totally ethical. And so he's the best person to call the shots on Michael's wellbeing, not some honcho or some CEO or anyone else, basically.

[01:02:26] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:26] Adam Cox: And so Phillips instructs everyone to listen to Conrad, and his medical judgment. So now everything runs through that man.

[01:02:33] Adam Cox: But Conrad Murray now is, he's had his internal medicine certification lapse. He's had no training in anes theology.

[01:02:42] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Anes theology.

[01:02:45] Adam Cox: That's what I meant. Yes.

[01:02:46] Kyle Risi: So Michael Jackson, in order to sleep at night, he's been anesthetized.

[01:02:49] Adam Cox: Yeah. Whoa. He doesn't really have experience as far as I could understand in sleep medicine or pain management.

[01:02:55] Adam Cox: And he's filed for bankruptcy, defaulted on a $1 million mortgage, and his [01:03:00] child support is in arrears. So this is a man not really equipped to be a doctor at this moment in time. And he has a big incentive to hold down this job to make sure that Michael goes through with this performance

[01:03:11] Kyle Risi: ish.

[01:03:12] Adam Cox: So Jackson personally requests him, to be his physician for the London shows.

[01:03:16] Adam Cox: He does trust him. An A EG agrees to pay Conrad Murray $150,000 per month a salary, which was negotiated down from an initial demand of $5 million per year.

[01:03:29] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[01:03:31] Kyle Risi: That is so mad. Mm-hmm. So there is incentives all over the place here.

[01:03:35] Adam Cox: Oh yeah. And the contract contains a clause. If the shows are postponed or canceled, Murray can be terminated. And his income depends on Jackson performing.

[01:03:45] Kyle Risi: Oh, there, I'll say it again. There are incentives all over the place here.

[01:03:50] Adam Cox: So if they're done like a basic background check on his, like current qualifications, they probably would realize, Hmm.

[01:03:56] Adam Cox: Maybe it's, maybe he's not the right guy.

[01:03:58] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Do you know what I was thinking about that when you [01:04:00] said it, the fact that his license had lapsed. And I think, if you are a private physician, and you were previously practicing as a physician, how important is that if you are just there serving one person?

[01:04:11] Kyle Risi: Right. Oh, my license has expired, but I can drive. Do you know what I do? You know what I mean?

[01:04:15] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's not like you have to renew your GCSE English. Yeah.

[01:04:19] Kyle Risi: I would see if there's a problem if he just never got his qualification.

[01:04:23] Adam Cox: Like he did pass.

[01:04:24] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:04:24] Adam Cox: But he hasn't got experience in some of the things that he is doing.

[01:04:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Like you said, the anest, but then he's like, well, how hard is that one little injection?

[01:04:32] Kyle Risi: But I take that back because I know I've heard people talk about like people specialize in Anesthetization.

[01:04:38] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:04:38] Adam Cox: Are we saying that right? Still

[01:04:39] Kyle Risi: I, does it matter at this point?

[01:04:42] Adam Cox: I think the listers know what we're trying to say.

[01:04:44] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Thanks guys. Thanks for being understanding. Wow.

[01:04:47] Adam Cox: ~Um, ~so Murray begins administering propofol ~pro propofol.~

[01:04:50] Kyle Risi: Wow. We are, yeah.

[01:04:52] Adam Cox: I can't

[01:04:53] Kyle Risi: anesthetists stuff.

[01:04:54] Adam Cox: Yeah. But yeah, this drug, he's doing it nightly and it's not in a hospital and it's in a bedroom [01:05:00] now. Propofol, I really should have learned how to pronounce that, should be administered exclusively by qualified healthcare professionals, IE anesthetists and via, an IV injection or infusion into a vein.

[01:05:13] Kyle Risi: So how is he doing it?

[01:05:14] Adam Cox: Well, I think he is doing that,

that

[01:05:15] Kyle Risi: he's flicking pills in his mouth.

[01:05:16] Adam Cox: I think he's watched a YouTube video or something.

[01:05:18] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[01:05:19] Adam Cox: A continuous supervision of vital signs such as blood pressure, oxygen levels Yeah. Is mandatory. As it can cause hypertension and slow breathing. So you have to watch someone as soon as you give them this drug.

[01:05:30] Kyle Risi: Sure. You put them on a monitor. Right.

[01:05:32] Adam Cox: Uhhuh, except the monitoring equipment isn't really apparently opened. And so he is half asing this completely and he has no means of measuring Michael Jackson's oxygen levels.

[01:05:44] Kyle Risi: Oh. So he is like, oh, Michael's like, I need to sleep. And he is like, but I haven't got everything packed out yet.

[01:05:48] Kyle Risi: It's it's fine. We'll get it packed out in the morning. Just give me the drugs or something like that.

[01:05:52] Adam Cox: Yeah. 'cause he's doing this every night, in a rented mansion. So the most famous person in the world can just try and get some [01:06:00] sleep.

[01:06:00] Kyle Risi: It's crazy and you can't say no to that stuff. A for example, as you said in the first episode, if you do say, no, I know this situation is different, but if you do say no, you'll sack. You get someone else that will do it. Do you know what I mean?

[01:06:12] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:06:13] Kyle Risi: And this guy sounds like a lot of riding on it. He's behind and like child support, so he's obviously gonna be like, I'll do whatever you want.

[01:06:20] Adam Cox: That's how it seems to me. Definitely.

[01:06:23] Kyle Risi: I remember like seeing some of the photographs of the bedroom when he was found after he died, and there being quite a lot of equipment around, like in his bedroom.

[01:06:32] Kyle Risi: Do you know what I mean? It felt like it was very clearly a bedroom. But it felt like you were in a hospital ward. Yeah. It's very nineties. I remember peach like, with that kind of two-tone kind of wallpaper. Loads of like drapery and stuff. Clearly someone's bedroom. And it had all this equipment in there.

[01:06:49] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly.

[01:06:50] Adam Cox: So on June 24th, 2009, Michael Jackson arrives for his final rehearsal. It's around 6:30 PM and he works until just after midnight.

[01:06:59] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:59] Adam Cox: [01:07:00] Footage is later released in, this is it than the post hummus documentary,

[01:07:05] Kyle Risi: post hummus,

[01:07:06] Adam Cox: posthumus.

[01:07:08] Kyle Risi: Posthumus. Oh, the Posthumus. I thought you were saying someone's name. The name of the director. No, God, I was taking. Okay. The Posthumus. Posthumus.

[01:07:22] Adam Cox: Yes.

[01:07:23] Kyle Risi: What is wrong with us?

[01:07:25] Adam Cox: It's been a long day.

[01:07:26] Adam Cox: What I'm trying to say is, when you see this footage, and I think it's good that they showed it in the documentary, it shows Michael at his best, he is sharp. He's focused, he's engaged, he's performing the earth song with full commitment, hitting all the cues, directing the band. And it's one of the good nights those that see him, they all say the same thing. He looks like Michael Jackson again.

[01:07:48] Kyle Risi: Oh, what day is this?

[01:07:49] Adam Cox: His last rehearsal.

[01:07:51] Kyle Risi: That's the thing though. I knew something. As soon as you said this was one of the good days, because that's always happens, right? People get sick and they get a little bit better, then they die

[01:07:59] Adam Cox: So he [01:08:00] finishes his rehearsals. He goes home, his chef prepares dinner. He eats, he goes upstairs to his bedroom. Murray is with him. And what happens next is known primarily through Murray's account.

[01:08:10] Adam Cox: ' cause according to Murray, Jackson cannot sleep and he is agitated. So Murray begins administering a sedatives one after another, escalating through the night,

[01:08:19] Kyle Risi: one after the other.

[01:08:20] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. Around one 30 he has some diazepam. Half an hour later he has some Lorazepam. Then an hour later he has some

[01:08:28] Kyle Risi: Epan,

[01:08:30] Adam Cox: miza, mid MidAm. I'm not making these up. Around five o'clock he has some more Lorazepam and at 7:30 AM he has some more MidAm again. So literally he has had five doses of things in the space of six hours.

[01:08:44] Kyle Risi: Wow. And they're all pans.

[01:08:46] Adam Cox: Yeah, they are hours pass. Nothing works. And Michael still can't sleep. His body can no longer shut down. Naturally,

[01:08:54] Kyle Risi: there must be something physically wrong with him. Like you hear these people [01:09:00] where they lose the ability to physically sleep and then they die, right?

[01:09:03] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:04] Kyle Risi: The fact that he's taken all of these pans, marsy pans and everything that is so bad, he's got so much in him and yet he still cannot sleep.

[01:09:14] Adam Cox: His body has clearly become accustomed to having probably that much, right? Like they say, if you go and have a gig, you obviously you've got all the energy and stuff like that, and it does take you maybe a couple of hours just to wind down. But this is something he's probably done throughout his entire life that he's just always at this kind of level. I don't know, to try and relax, switch off and maybe of all the drugs he's had and the paranoia.

[01:09:36] Kyle Risi: Listen,

[01:09:36] Adam Cox: he can,

[01:09:37] Kyle Risi: we've all had a little bit of cocaine, and we all know that. Yeah, you can become a little bit desensitized to it. You can adapt to a little bit.

[01:09:45] Kyle Risi: But when it comes to, we are gonna butcher it again, anesthetist some or all the marsans, that stuff puts you out. Like how, I don't think that you adapt to that shit,

[01:09:58] Adam Cox: but I think he's been on this for a [01:10:00] while.

[01:10:00] Kyle Risi: It is wild to me. It's so sad.

[01:10:02] Adam Cox: So according to Murray Jackson begins asking for propo funnel. Propo funnel,

[01:10:07] Kyle Risi: fuck, it's difficult to be serious.

[01:10:10] Adam Cox: Um, to help him sleep and rest repeatedly. And Murray claims that he does resist. And he also says that he's trying to wean him off it. But approximately 10:40 AM in the morning, he just gives in.

[01:10:22] Adam Cox: He is like, okay, you need to rest. And he gives him 25 milligrams of the drug. ~Uh, ~and he says it's quite small, a dose. And by 10 50. Jackson is unconscious and Murray says he monitors him for 10 minutes and around 11:00 AM he leaves the room for two minutes. When he returns, michael Jackson is not breathing.

[01:10:41] Adam Cox: But phone records tell a different story because at 11:18 AM there's a 32 minute call to his Las Vegas office, then a three minute call to a patient, and then an 11 minute call to a colleague in Houston.

[01:10:54] Adam Cox: So 47 minutes on the phone while his patient is unconscious under this [01:11:00] drug with no monitoring equipment.

[01:11:02] Kyle Risi: Wow. Okay.

[01:11:04] Kyle Risi: Can I assume that when this all goes to shit, because this is one of the most famous people in the world and there is this very expensive concert that's on the line that hasn't gone ahead, someone's head has to roll, and this sounds like it is the perfect scapegoat, potentially. I don't know, but it's the perfect person to go after and blame.

[01:11:25] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:11:25] Adam Cox: He's obviously, whether he's trying to save his own ass or whatever at this point, or trying to get help, what should he do? But what's clear is that there's a period of time which isn't fully explained actually what happened.

[01:11:37] Kyle Risi: Yeah. He's saying that I was monitoring him, but no, you weren't.

[01:11:39] Kyle Risi: You were talking on the phone to a patient.

[01:11:41] Adam Cox: Because at 12:17 PM a bodyguard enters the room and he later testifies that Murray is frantic. According to the bodyguard, Murray begins grabbing vials from the nightstand, telling him, put these in a bag, an VY bag, which is milky white, which is consistent with the drug that he's just given him.

[01:11:56] Adam Cox: Items are concealed. And only then does Murray instruct [01:12:00] him to call 9 1 1 when he is cleared off some of the

evidence.

[01:12:03] Kyle Risi: Oh, so he's covering his tracks. He knows that Michael has died and now he's oh, okay.

[01:12:08] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:09] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[01:12:09] Adam Cox: So a call is placed, at 12:21 PM a 50-year-old man is reported as not breathing. The dispatcher asks, is he on a bed? And he is, and they say, oh, you need to move him onto the floor, because performing CPR on a mattress if basically absorbs a force, it.

[01:12:24] Adam Cox: Renders it null, essentially.

[01:12:26] Kyle Risi: Oh wow. That's good advice actually. You don't hear too much of that in the manuals.

[01:12:30] Adam Cox: Yeah. Paramedics arrive pretty quickly. They find him on the bed briefly, moved back again, there's an IV in his leg and at this point there's very little time left. His body is already cooling.

[01:12:40] Adam Cox: Paramedic, Richard Sel notes it immediately that his skin is cold to touch. His pupils are fixed and dilated. And based on that alone, he estimates something critical that at least 20 minutes since cardiac arrest. And yet there is still information missing.

[01:12:56] Adam Cox: Murray does not tell paramedics about the propofol. He [01:13:00] does not tell the emergency room doctors either.

[01:13:02] Kyle Risi: That vital information that could potentially have saved him

[01:13:04] Adam Cox: Exactly. That is one of the most important pieces of information he should have shared. But

[01:13:08] Kyle Risi: then whose life is on the line here? I'm not saying, I'm not excusing it, I'm trying to understand why he wouldn't, because of course he's gonna get in trouble.

[01:13:15] Adam Cox: Yeah, he's saving his ass. So they continue to try and resuscitate him at the house. And then in the ambulance they get Michael to a hospital and doctors continue working for over an hour. Every possible intervention is tried. But at 2:26 PM on June the 25th, 2009, Michael Jackson is pronounced dead at 50 years old.

[01:13:36] Kyle Risi: Wow. I remember that day. I remember coming up on the news.

[01:13:40] Adam Cox: Do you know it only took 20 minutes before the news to leak of his death

[01:13:44] Kyle Risi: from the hospital? It doesn't surprise me because he is the most famous person in the world.

[01:13:49] Adam Cox: I think TMZ broke it really actually. Yeah. So within minutes, the internet begins to collapse. Everyone's online. There's all these tweets about him being dead, and the following day [01:14:00] the autopsy is performed and the cause of death is acute propofol intoxication.

[01:14:05] Adam Cox: With contributing benzodiazepines, which are all the PAMs or the

[01:14:09] Kyle Risi: Marzipans. Yeah.

[01:14:09] Adam Cox: In simple terms, the propofol killed him and everything else that made it easier for him to die. And his body, um, was just five nine, a hundred thirty six pounds. At the time of his death, he had vitiligo. That was confirmed, the condition he had spoken about publicly.

[01:14:26] Kyle Risi: Well, they case rested.

[01:14:27] Adam Cox: Yeah. Case rested.

[01:14:28] Kyle Risi: It proved,

[01:14:28] Adam Cox: it's proved.

[01:14:29] Kyle Risi: We've proved it from his dead body. That's a weird thing, that's the thing that they like. Yeah, he definitely had vitiligo.

[01:14:34] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's not

[01:14:35] Kyle Risi: a conspiracy guys.

[01:14:36] Adam Cox: They do say his heart was healthy and his organs were functioning. He had no cancer or terminal illness, which what some people reported.

[01:14:43] Adam Cox: So what we're saying is, without the propofol, he would've lived, albeit perhaps he was more frail than the average man.

[01:14:50] Kyle Risi: So the drugs were essentially just making him, he had a propole hangover in the time that he was aw awake. That's why he looked weak and frail and [01:15:00] tired and stuff, because a wasn't sleeping and he just had all this residue drugs in him stopping him from functioning properly.

[01:15:06] Kyle Risi: So what you're saying is that without that he would've been fine.

[01:15:10] Adam Cox: Exactly. Without those drugs, he wouldn't, or especially the final, dose he would've lived, right?

[01:15:16] Adam Cox: And so ultimately it's not his body failing. It was the people around him failing him. ' cause Conrad Murray is charged in 2010 with involuntary manslaughter, not murder, even though investigators believe the evidence could support that.

[01:15:30] Adam Cox: And the trial begins in 2011 and it lasts six weeks. And the prosecution lays out simply that a doctor administering a surgical anesthetic in a private home, no monitoring equipment, no emergency protocol, and a delay in dialing 9 1 1. Failing to give evidence and concealing evidence of what was happening.

[01:15:49] Adam Cox: The defense do argue that Jackson gave himself propofol. Oh, really? That he was a desperate addict and it was an accident, not criminal negligence or anything like [01:16:00] that.

[01:16:00] Adam Cox: But Murray is sentenced to four years in county jail. That

[01:16:04] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[01:16:04] Adam Cox: The maximum he could get,

[01:16:05] Kyle Risi: That was the maximum that he could get. And he got the full maximum.

[01:16:08] Adam Cox: He, I think he serves about half of that because of overcrowding. Good.

[01:16:13] Kyle Risi: Oh, okay. Shit.

[01:16:14] Adam Cox: Yeah. Afterwards, Murray does publish a memoir titled, this is it framing himself not as responsible, but as the scapegoat. No remorse, no accountability. And that's where the criminal case ends

[01:16:27] Kyle Risi: really. But also how sickening is that he uses, this is it for the title of his book, trying to capitalize on all of that. And I think to me, that shows that yeah,

[01:16:40] Adam Cox: he's a money grab.

[01:16:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:16:42] Adam Cox: Then on a second trial, this one isn't criminal, it's a civil case. Michael's mother, Katherine Jackson files a wrongful death lawsuit against a EG Live.

[01:16:52] Kyle Risi: Interesting.

[01:16:52] Adam Cox: And she tries to do it for, I think, almost $2 billion. And the case lasts five months, 58 witnesses. And the [01:17:00] question at the center of it isn't necessarily what happened. It's the responsibility. Did a EG hire Murray? Did they control him? Did they supervise him?

[01:17:08] Kyle Risi: Oh, so it's all revolving around Murray.

[01:17:10] Adam Cox: Mm. And did they ultimately put an unqualified financial, desperate doctor in charge of Michael Jackson's life?

[01:17:17] Kyle Risi: Someone with all the incentive to a, make sure that Michael gets onto that stage?

[01:17:23] Adam Cox: Exactly.

[01:17:24] Kyle Risi: But also, Michael is culpable in this as well. Because if Michael turned around and said, I do not like this physician, they would've replaced the physician.

[01:17:32] Adam Cox: Well, he's got a physician that would give him drugs.

[01:17:35] Kyle Risi: Yes.

[01:17:35] Adam Cox: Ultimately. Exactly. So yeah, there is that I element, I think we jump

[01:17:39] Kyle Risi: that if it wasn't Murray, it would've been another physician mm-hmm.

[01:17:42] Adam Cox: In

[01:17:42] Kyle Risi: this position.

[01:17:43] Adam Cox: I think so. Yeah. There's also all the emails where people had recognized that Jackson was deteriorating, he wasn't himself. But they were still pushing for the tour to go live.

[01:17:53] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. So I think the fact is there isn't this due diligence.

[01:17:57] Kyle Risi: It's money.

[01:17:58] Adam Cox: Exactly. If the show stops, the [01:18:00] money stops. And that's bad news for both Murray and a EG. And then something else came out, the, a testimony from Prince Jackson, 15 years old at the time.

[01:18:08] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[01:18:08] Adam Cox: He says his father would get often these phone calls from executives and he'd cry and he'd say like, they're going to kill me. So I dunno, again, is that the paranoia? But I think he just felt this pressure from the, these concert, these managers or whatever to continue.

[01:18:24] Kyle Risi: Yeah. No, and I, I kind of read that in a different way. Like when, because my mom would say it all the time, these kids are gonna be the death of me is saying it in that way.

[01:18:32] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:33] Kyle Risi: Um, and I'm wondering if they keep pushing me and they keep wanting me to do things that I just don't feel like I've got the strength to do it. And I think it's said in that kind of context, but, to overhear that regardless

[01:18:43] Adam Cox: your dad saying that,

[01:18:44] Kyle Risi: yeah. It's suggesting that they are asking for a lot from me when I'm telling them that I don't have the energy

[01:18:50] Adam Cox: mm-hmm.

[01:18:51] Kyle Risi: Or the strength. Wow.

[01:18:53] Adam Cox: Ultimately, the court, um, and the jury rule that a EG was not liable and the case closed. [01:19:00] And ag, they still make a fortune from all, you know, the documentary, the merchandise, the tickets because half the fans don't refund their tickets. They keep them as souvenirs. The film comes out, and in it, the Jackson Brothers reunite to record backing vocals for one of the songs.

[01:19:16] Kyle Risi: Really?

[01:19:16] Adam Cox: It's filled with all the rehearsal footage and some of the final performances. And like I say, it grossed, 267 million worldwide. And what you see in the footage is undeniable Michael Jackson, he still has it. He's still one of the best in the world.

[01:19:31] Kyle Risi: That, which is like glimmers of it.

[01:19:33] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:33] Adam Cox: His own bodyguards. Say something that sticks that Michael wasn't afraid of fans, he wasn't afraid of strangers, he was afraid of the people around him, the lawyers, the managers, the system essentially that he was inside. And that's sort of what's frustrating. 'cause there's never a clean answer. Just a lot of conspiracy about what happened and what went on.

[01:19:54] Adam Cox: And also his death wasn't inevitable, at least at this point in time. It was preventable.[01:20:00]

[01:20:00] Adam Cox: A man invisible decline, physically, mentally, still being pushed forward, and a doctor who should never have been there.

[01:20:07] Adam Cox: And a system that didn't stop it and people didn't protect him.

[01:20:11] Kyle Risi: But I just feel like you're trying to absolve him from any culpability here, like Michael Jackson. Without him, he wouldn't have been this dependent on these drugs.

[01:20:20] Adam Cox: True, yeah. That is true of, obviously he does have a hand in bringing Murray along with him. It was his choice. And I think it's, regardless of whether he is a pedophile or not, I think just at this point in time, there is a little bit of a, a tragic way in terms of his final few days.

[01:20:38] Adam Cox: He wasn't looked after. Some people might say he, he deserved it at the end of the day because of maybe he wasn't a nice person.

[01:20:45] Adam Cox: I dunno, I'm just looking at it from both sides, I guess.

[01:20:48] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And I mean the, the record shows that he was acquitted of all charges.

[01:20:53] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:54] Kyle Risi: Which was surprising to me. I didn't realize that was the case.

[01:20:57] Adam Cox: 12 days after his death, there's a memorial and it's [01:21:00] held, there 17 and a half thousand tickets. It draws loads of people and a global sort of audience essentially that people wanna pay their last respects

[01:21:08] Kyle Risi: while they sold tickets to it.

[01:21:10] Adam Cox: Yeah. Or at least gave out tickets. I dunno if they were sold. But Stevie Wonder, Mariah Carey Usher were there and Jennifer Hudson sang, will you be there? And Smokey Robinson reads from the Bible, Brooke Shield talks about the boys she grew up with. There's all this really nice kind of remembrance about who Michael was.

[01:21:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:21:28] Adam Cox: And then Paris Jackson at just 11 years old Steps forward. And she says that ever since I was born, daddy has always been the best father. And she can't even finish her sentence. She just breaks down

[01:21:39] Kyle Risi: shame

[01:21:40] Adam Cox: and she's consoled, by her aunt Janet Jackson. So I think that's something that I think we often forget. We talk about is he a monster? Whatever it is, we forget that he is a dad at this point and he is got really young kids that have to. Be shown, all these allegations and stuff like that, they hear about his, their father. I don't know what does, [01:22:00] what is their life like?

[01:22:01] Kyle Risi: It's all very true, and it makes us all very complex. It just depends, right? Because we don't know the truth.

[01:22:07] Adam Cox: Michael is buried in September, 2009, and for a while, that's where the story rests. Life moves on, and his legacy is remembered largely, quite fondly. That is until a decade later.

[01:22:21] Adam Cox: Because in 2019 at Sundance Film Festival, a documentary premiers called Leaving Neverland.

[01:22:29] Kyle Risi: Ah, yes, I remember this awful documentary.

[01:22:33] Adam Cox: Yeah. It lands hard and it's devastating.

[01:22:36] Adam Cox: In fact, it does win Prime time Emmy awards. But as a result, radio stations are forced to pull Michael's music based on some of the revelations that revealed in the documentary.

[01:22:47] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[01:22:48] Adam Cox: Even the Simpsons removes an episode featuring his voice, because everyone turns on. Michael, I think this is probably the biggest shift to people going, actually, this isn't right. We need to actually stand up [01:23:00] here.

[01:23:00] Kyle Risi: Can you remind me of. The key people that were in the documentary, I know, focus on a couple of the boys that claimed that they were sexually abused and they went through their testimony.

[01:23:09] Kyle Risi: But was it some of the names that we've already mentioned?

[01:23:12] Adam Cox: Yeah, so there's a guy we haven't spoken about James Safe, Chuck, but there's another guy, Wade Robson.

[01:23:19] Kyle Risi: Ah, you told me. Would have been in there.

[01:23:22] Adam Cox: And yeah, we're now taking the pin out.

[01:23:24] Kyle Risi: So what has he said now? 'Cause initially you said at the trial

[01:23:27] Adam Cox: Yeah, he,

[01:23:27] Kyle Risi: he testified what, twice essentially, that nothing had ever happened.

[01:23:31] Adam Cox: That's right.

[01:23:31] Kyle Risi: But now in this documentary, what's he saying?

[01:23:34] Adam Cox: Well, both boys had met Michael Jackson when they were young, so we're talking about the late eighties. I think even James himself, he got to be in a commercial with him and stuff like this.

[01:23:45] Adam Cox: So they were quite privileged to be around him and what they got to do.

[01:23:49] Adam Cox: But in 1999, Wade moves to Los Angeles with his mother and sister. He's just eight. And he starts working with Michael, appearing in black or white jam, heal the world. So he's not just a fan, [01:24:00] he's actually part of it.

[01:24:01] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And he is trying to make it in Hollywood, isn't he? Mm.

[01:24:04] Adam Cox: Then you've got James who visits Neverland and yeah, and he's there a number of times. And then fast forward to 2005 at the Gavin Avizo trial, we had Wade Robson, it was 22 years at the time. Take a stand. And under oath say that clearly nothing ever happened between him and Michael.

[01:24:22] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[01:24:22] Adam Cox: James doesn't testify at that trial.

[01:24:25] Adam Cox: He'll later to say that he felt pressure not to. But at the time the defense actually never called for him.

[01:24:30] Adam Cox: And for years after this, both of them had publicly defended Michael Jackson. Wade attends the memorial and speaks about him with admiration and works with his actual estate afterwards.

[01:24:41] Adam Cox: But then Wade auditions for Cirque de Sole, um, a Michael Jackson show. And it's a huge role, ~uh, ~and it's a chance to honor Michael's legacy, but he doesn't get cast.

[01:24:51] Adam Cox: And at this point, he's 30 years old and he later says he's struggling financially, personally. And then what he describes as a mental breakdown. And it's [01:25:00] here that everything changes because Wade now says that during this period he realized he was abused.

[01:25:06] Kyle Risi: Interesting,

[01:25:07] Adam Cox: but not once, but over years between the ages of seven and 14. Now both Wade and James recount that what happened in the documentary, Jackson had allegedly groomed them and their families and built trust with the parents to gain access.

[01:25:22] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:22] Adam Cox: And the abuse occurred in multiple locations at Neverland, in hotels, and in the documentary, their account is really quite extreme. It's

[01:25:30] Kyle Risi: really graphic, isn't it?

[01:25:32] Adam Cox: Very horrific. Yeah. And I'm not gonna go into the details, but they're very descriptive of what

[01:25:36] Kyle Risi: happened. Yeah. I think the shocking element is that they describe elements of abuse within elements that are very deep rooted in childhood.

[01:25:46] Adam Cox: Mm.

[01:25:46] Kyle Risi: So they talk about this horrific stuff that's happened all while there is a cardboard cutout of Peter Pan or sink Bell at the bottom of the bed.

[01:25:55] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:25:56] Kyle Risi: And that's the shocking elements of it, it's this very [01:26:00] close intertwining of those two things that should be very separate at all times.

[01:26:05] Kyle Risi: And I think that's what made that shocking.

[01:26:07] Adam Cox: Yeah. And anyone watching this can't help but feels sympathy for these poor men. Yeah. Because of the, what they're saying. Michael Jackson is a monster.

[01:26:16] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And I mean the, I remember watching the documentary, albeit a long time ago, and some of the ways that, and I believe it was the boy, who would move to LA 'cause he was quite theatrical, quite musical and stuff. And the way that he was describing the abuse just made so much sense to me because he was just saying it very candidly, but he was like, Michael Jackson would think about where we would do stuff and we would lock ourselves away in specific rooms because he knew that if someone was coming, it would be open one door, open the next door, and we would be notified that someone was coming.

[01:26:50] Kyle Risi: And that's the kind of detail that you wouldn't just make up. Do you know what I mean? That's the thing that stood out to him.

[01:26:56] Adam Cox: Yeah. And yeah, I think people take [01:27:00] these allegations seriously, which is why there's this kind of backlash mm-hmm.

[01:27:03] Adam Cox: Against Michael.

[01:27:05] Kyle Risi: It was very damning.

[01:27:06] Adam Cox: And they can't sue Michael Jackson. Obviously he's dead, but they do sue his companies or the estate.

[01:27:12] Adam Cox: And the argument was that, someone should be held responsible for letting that happen

[01:27:18] Kyle Risi: because Oh, so his estate should be held responsible?

[01:27:20] Adam Cox: Maybe not, but the management, because I guess if people, there's a duty of care to these boys when they're around this celebrity.

[01:27:27] Adam Cox: If they knew that this was happening, they let it happen. Does that make sense?

[01:27:32] Kyle Risi: It does. But I don't necessarily agree with it to me, you can, yeah. You want justice, but surely if he had done the su you'd want justice from him, but he is dead. And so who are you coming off? You're coming off of the management, and I don't necessarily think management changes all the time, right? The same people that was, operating Michael's estate today aren't the same people that were operating the estates back then.

[01:27:54] Adam Cox: That's very true. Yeah. However, one thing is that the defense wanted access to [01:28:00] Wade Robson's emails.

[01:28:01] Kyle Risi: Interesting.

[01:28:02] Adam Cox: And he fought hard to prevent that and tried to keep them private.

[01:28:06] Kyle Risi: Is it because he would've been found out to be lying under oath?

[01:28:10] Adam Cox: And

[01:28:10] Kyle Risi: therefore perjury?

[01:28:11] Adam Cox: Well, when those emails came out, what it showed was some inconsistencies. Once again, in Wade Robson's story, there were multiple versions of the same story. Emails between Wade and his mother going back and forth, refining details, changing timelines.

[01:28:28] Adam Cox: And in one exchange, Wade sends her an article making claims about Michael, and she replies that never happened. And yet that exact claim ends up in her testimony under oath.

[01:28:39] Adam Cox: And it's, at this point, the credibility issue rears its surface once again.

[01:28:44] Kyle Risi: Sure. The second he comes forward and says, actually, I was molested. That is a credibility issue regardless of what's being said and what they found later on. Right? Mm-hmm. Because he did say under oath that it didn't happen twice.

[01:28:56] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. And so yeah, based on what you've said and [01:29:00] the rest of the information about the emails found, it sounds like it's collusion, right?

[01:29:04] Kyle Risi: And you said he got to 30, he hadn't made it in Hollywood. And so again, you painted this picture of someone who has something to gain.

[01:29:13] Adam Cox: Yeah. And that's not to say that people can't, I think we said before, um, you know, trauma resurface and maybe you can it reflect on something.

[01:29:21] Adam Cox: So I think that can still happen, right? That it comes about in different ways. Yeah. People react to it differently.

[01:29:26] Kyle Risi: And your interpretation of abuse can change over the years when you do get to 30, if he does have kids, and then you look back and you go, would I want this to have happened? At the time it was fine. I was unaffected by it. Mm-hmm. But now that I've got kids, would I want my kids to go through this? And the answer could be different.

[01:29:42] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly. But then a lot of people after watching the documentary have gone back through both Wade Robson and James Safe Chuck's claims, and they've spotted holes in their stories too,

[01:29:52] Kyle Risi: really

[01:29:52] Adam Cox: enough that it actually affected the documentary itself because the original HBO version was over 230 minutes, but when it aired in the [01:30:00] UK, it was trimmed down to 189 minutes

[01:30:02] Kyle Risi: because of contradictions.

[01:30:04] Adam Cox: Well, that's the, what they say is that, oh, it's just a trim or whatever for like broadcast perspectives, you know, ads, things like that. But what, the viewers have noticed is that certain claims in the original version don't appear in the UK version. So immediately people are asking questions like, well, if you pulled that, then you either knew that wasn't right, or you now realize you can't now use that in your documentary.

[01:30:27] Kyle Risi: Sure. Could it also be correct if I'm wrong, the liable laws in the UK are way stricter

[01:30:33] Adam Cox: Potentially. Yeah.

[01:30:34] Kyle Risi: And so to protect themselves from potential scrutiny, they thought it's easier for us to just keep this out because we could, someone could potentially come and sue us and it's a lot easier to win a libel case in the uk.

[01:30:46] Adam Cox: Yeah, that's it. I didn't come up in what I researched, but that is a, plausible for sure,

[01:30:51] Adam Cox: but I think again, which is inconsistent, is that Wade at one point says that, in 2005 when he gave that testimony under oath, that he [01:31:00] already knew and ~kind of ~understood what had happened to him.

[01:31:03] Adam Cox: But then he was 22 at the time, and it's, he then says later that it was when he was 30, that he then realized what had happened to him. So again, it's these timelines that just don't necessarily add up.

[01:31:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I get it.

[01:31:14] Adam Cox: He also had protected Michael, but then he says, oh, we felt sorry for his children and he didn't want their father to go to prison. It is all just a very messy web .

[01:31:23] Kyle Risi: And that's the thing though, like there could be truth in there, but soon as you tarnish your story with inconsistencies testimonies under oath, I'm sorry.

[01:31:31] Kyle Risi: You may have been abused, but you, it's so now difficult to even prove either way because you set off on one path to begin with and you've changed later on.

[01:31:40] Adam Cox: I think that's the thing that all these cases that were spoken about today, like I find it hard to fully side with them because of, these other allegations. And maybe that's the defense team doing a really good job at like just picking holes and finding these things and bring, and making that like the forefront of what we are being [01:32:00] told.

[01:32:00] Adam Cox: But you know, I think he could be a pedophile, but I don't think these cases prove that at the moment.

[01:32:06] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I, yes, correct.

[01:32:09] Kyle Risi: I can't necessarily make up my mind either way. I'm very much on the fence, even though I definitely believe he is capable of doing this.

[01:32:17] Kyle Risi: But based on the cases that you've brought forward and the evidence. And hey, maybe the way that the defense has maybe managed to kind of like, put doubt in your mind. I think they've been very successful in that because I'm on the fence.

[01:32:29] Adam Cox: Yeah. And I think, the same thing happened with like James, right? He says that some of the abuse happened, at the train station in Neverland. Like I think it was in 1994. Some, his timelines basically when he said that happened, the train station wasn't even built at that point.

[01:32:43] Adam Cox: And yes, you can get your timelines wrong, but he was quite clear and specific about that. And yeah, it doesn't quite add up. Sure.

[01:32:50] Adam Cox: Then there's another pattern. People are coming forward with offers or incentives to get people to speak out against Michael. Some of his own security team have been approached. Not to [01:33:00] accuse him directly, but to imply or suggest that something may have happened. They're offered money just to like, go can you deny it or do you want to like, just comment on this?

[01:33:08] Adam Cox: Or something like that. So it's not proof or truth, it's just a story that sells because Michael Jackson and Scandal is, well, it's gold in terms of news.

[01:33:18] Kyle Risi: Sure. Yeah. No, I get that. That's a very good. Assessment of it. The second there's a sniff or something dodgy going on that is able to resurface all of this stuff.

[01:33:27] Kyle Risi: It's going to sell because he is one of the most famous people in the world.

[01:33:31] Kyle Risi: But also people are out there going, I'd really like to get to the bottom of this. And so when there's anything that's in the paper, they could think maybe this is it, maybe this is a smoking gun that disproves or proves.

[01:33:42] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:33:42] Adam Cox: And you've got people that take advantage of that because they want money, they want to leverage. Sure. Their own sort of personal interest. But then you've got people like Aaron Carter, in fact that said that his mother even tried to get him to accuse Michael for money. And, uh, he's in a, a hotel room with FBI agents and she's going, go on, tell him that he [01:34:00] molested you.

[01:34:00] Adam Cox: And he is like, what are you talking about, mom? That never happened. Wow. So it's crazy isn't it, as these parents, some of them with this agenda, but equally, is it these kids that don't really understand what happened to them? I dunno.

[01:34:12] Kyle Risi: It's, yeah, you don't, no. Thanks for fucking it all up for me.

[01:34:16] Adam Cox: And from there, both of the cases for Wade and James, they hit a wall. So when you step back and look at everything, a few things become clear. The FB, I looked into Michael Jackson for years and nothing, no evidence of abuse that ever went to trial. Ever. Basically, he couldn't be found guilty.

[01:34:33] Adam Cox: That matters because Wade Robson, James safe, Chuck, both said under oath in the nineties that nothing happened. So the question becomes why would Michael call people he was abusing to defend him in court, and why would he risk them speaking out at all? And then their stories change. Not once, but multiple times.

[01:34:50] Adam Cox: That's a

[01:34:50] Kyle Risi: good point.

[01:34:51] Adam Cox: And of course, Michael supposed honesty that he did in fact sleep in a bed with a child and he didn't see the problem, which is what makes this [01:35:00] difficult, because that doesn't look like someone trying to cover something up. It looks like someone who doesn't understand how it's perceived. Or is it someone that's hiding in plain sight?

[01:35:08] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:35:09] Adam Cox: Some see innocence, naivety, a damaged person trying to recreate a childhood that he never had.

[01:35:15] Adam Cox: And others see something far darker. And the truth is, you can understand both sides and maybe even both are true because the allegations themselves, at least the ones tested, don't hold up cleanly.

[01:35:28] Adam Cox: But the lifestyles, the choices in the environment, you can't shake the feeling that something just wasn't right.

[01:35:34] Adam Cox: And so for me, where does that leave it?

[01:35:36] Adam Cox: In 2017, courts ruled that Michael Jackson's companies could not be held responsible for his alleged actions. They said. So no

[01:35:43] Kyle Risi: more suing him,

[01:35:44] Adam Cox: basically. No more suing. Yeah. Said there was no evidence these companies controlled him or headed legal duty to protect anyone from him.

[01:35:52] Kyle Risi: That's what I said,

[01:35:53] Adam Cox: which seems wrong in my eyes because I feel like there could be someone that was complicit in covering things up. But further [01:36:00] documentaries have emerged offering different narratives.

[01:36:02] Adam Cox: Even commercially, the reaction is a bit complicated because album sales, they still go on and some stations have added his music back into the playlists. Mm-hmm. So the audience hasn't fully turned away.

[01:36:13] Adam Cox: And even now it isn't over because this year there's some long standing civil cases that are due to go to trial.

[01:36:20] Kyle Risi: Wow. In 20 25,

[01:36:21] Adam Cox: 20 26, Kyle

[01:36:23] Kyle Risi: in 2026.

[01:36:24] Adam Cox: So even now, we haven't seen the end of this saga.

[01:36:28] Kyle Risi: Mm. And that's the thing, like with every case, with every person that comes forward, with every testimony, with every speculation, with every theory, it only makes the truth even harder to get at.

[01:36:39] Adam Cox: Yeah. And even though some of the claims in the past might have been weak or fabricated, um,

[01:36:45] Kyle Risi: it's still out there.

[01:36:46] Adam Cox: It doesn't,

[01:36:47] Kyle Risi: it's still out there. Muddying the thing.

[01:36:48] Adam Cox: It doesn't mean that other people coming forward is false. And that's the uncomfortable part for me, because it doesn't rule out that there was abuse or wasn't abuse, but it's just the evidence and claims taken to trial [01:37:00] so far don't have that credible proof.

[01:37:02] Adam Cox: And if. Anyone has been abused, it makes them coming forward probably more difficult because they probably think they're not gonna be believed or they're just gonna be held onto such scrutiny.

[01:37:12] Adam Cox: Or maybe they did this one thing wrong in their past. Yeah. And then yeah, it's gonna be wiped out.

[01:37:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Or you misremember one little tiny detail.

[01:37:20] Adam Cox: Exactly. That you can get things wrong.

[01:37:23] Adam Cox: And so one final thing I will say, it is estimated that Michael Jackson's estate earned $105 million in pre-tax earnings between October, 2024 and September, 2025 alone.

[01:37:37] Kyle Risi: Wow.

[01:37:37] Adam Cox: He is the highest earning deceased celebrity ever. And whoever is in charge of that, you're gonna make sure his reputation is protected one way or another.

[01:37:47] Kyle Risi: Sneaky bitch with that little line at the end.

[01:37:50] Kyle Risi: Wow. That is food for thought. That one.

[01:37:52] Adam Cox: And that is the conclusion of Michael Jackson, part two of testimonies, trials, and controversy.

[01:37:59] Kyle Risi: Wow. [01:38:00] You've definitely shifted the needle to inconclusive for me. I don't know. I think I was convinced that he did it.

[01:38:06] Adam Cox: I'm still, I don't think we should go Oh.

[01:38:09] Adam Cox: Be so sympathetic that we go ~like, ~oh, it didn't happen.

[01:38:12] Kyle Risi: Sure. Correct.

[01:38:13] Adam Cox: But I just think there's so much in these stories that I don't think are. Well-known.

[01:38:18] Kyle Risi: Sure.

[01:38:19] Adam Cox: That you just have to look at them differently.

[01:38:21] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And there, and again, that's the other thing. There is so much that you can lean one way until someone says, but X, Y, and Z.

[01:38:29] Kyle Risi: And then you go, that's true.

[01:38:31] Kyle Risi: You start leaning the other way and then someone goes and X, Y, and Z and you go, mm. So you just don't know. And I think the safest bet is that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. And the middle is very complicated.

[01:38:42] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:38:43] Kyle Risi: It's this massive Venn diagram whereby you've got one of the biggest stars in the world that people want to capitalize on and take advantage of. You've got this incredible personality that is extremely damaged and extremely a product of his background and his [01:39:00] upbringing.

[01:39:00] Kyle Risi: And within that is a very complex psyche where it's very plausible from what we know of Michael Jackson, that he could 100% legitimately believe that he is a young boy. And so sharing a bed with another young boy is just like having a sleepover.

[01:39:18] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:39:19] Kyle Risi: That is very plausible to me. So it is very, it is a very difficult situation.

[01:39:24] Adam Cox: Yeah. I dunno what to think. And it's one of those things that, yeah, his music is so good. You do enjoy, you wanna listen to his music.

[01:39:32] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[01:39:32] Adam Cox: I dunno how I feel. About Michael Jackson other than this is where we're at.

[01:39:36] Kyle Risi: Sure. I think for me it's easy with the music. Like I'm never not gonna not like his music if I like one of his songs.

[01:39:44] Kyle Risi: That doesn't really play a factor in for me. But then at the same time, it's because of Salon undecided. If I 100% knew without a doubt

[01:39:52] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[01:39:52] Kyle Risi: That he was responsible for molesting a bunch of kids, I probably wouldn't listen to his music.

[01:39:58] Adam Cox: That's a very good point actually.

[01:39:59] Kyle Risi: Yeah. [01:40:00] But it's the uncertainty at this moment in time that I don't have enough information or there's not enough certainty for me to actually pick a moral side.

[01:40:07] Kyle Risi: And I think, and that's not dismissing anything. I think if I do have enough information, I would pick a side.

[01:40:13] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[01:40:14] Kyle Risi: So yeah. What an incredible saga, Adam.

[01:40:16] Adam Cox: It was a saga.

[01:40:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Your first double par. I wonder how that's gonna be received. Three weeks of Adam on the tro.

[01:40:23] Adam Cox: Yeah. Are you still listening out there?

[01:40:25] Kyle Risi: Do you fancy doing some member shoutouts?

[01:40:27] Adam Cox: Let's do it.

[01:40:28] Adam Cox: So this is the part of the show where we remind you that the compendium, we're not just a podcast, we're a circus. We are an inclusive company with rights and benefits and

[01:40:40] Kyle Risi: policies.

[01:40:41] Adam Cox: And policies, yeah. And, just having a jolly good time.

[01:40:44] Kyle Risi: So make sure you guys head over to the Compendium podcast and click the jobs tab in the footer, where you can browse through our growing collection of bizarre and suspiciously specific, deeply bureaucratic circus roles,

[01:40:55] Adam Cox: all of which are fake. Of course,

[01:40:58] Kyle Risi: yes they are,

[01:40:58] Adam Cox: but they sound really fun. [01:41:00]

[01:41:00] Kyle Risi: They do more professional than some businesses. We work for

[01:41:03] Adam Cox: Uhhuh.

[01:41:03] Kyle Risi: You guys can pick your favorite role, apply for it, and then tell us exactly what you do in your position day to day.

[01:41:09] Adam Cox: And we want the gory details. Not necessarily gory, we just wanna know what your duties are, what incidents you've had to deal with.

[01:41:17] Adam Cox: Have you had to mop up sick? Who's underperforming? What are your KPIs looking like? Ismal though, has someone let Esmeralda out again,

[01:41:25] Kyle Risi: the bearded lady. And of course, if you guys include a photograph with your application, you'll automatically be added to our team member page and so you can become part of the compendium family.

[01:41:35] Kyle Risi: Each week we'll pick our favorite submission and read it out on the show, which means that it's now time to put the spotlight firmly on this week's glorious employee who is.

[01:41:46] Kyle Risi: Eliza Gillingham, the Ringmaster Gesture standardization reviewer.

[01:41:52] Adam Cox: Okay,

[01:41:53] Kyle Risi: she's here to keep me in check.

[01:41:54] Adam Cox: Oh, yeah.

[01:41:55] Kyle Risi: That is her job. Eliza was hired as a ringmaster gesture, gesture standardization [01:42:00] reviewer. A role created to bring order, consistency, plausible deniability to the ring Master's. Physical communication across rings, tent, and unexpected popup spectacles.

[01:42:11] Adam Cox: What does that mean?

[01:42:12] Kyle Risi: Trying to stop me from getting sued. Basically,

[01:42:16] Adam Cox: she has got her work cut

[01:42:17] Kyle Risi: out.

[01:42:18] Kyle Risi: She has Eliza's remit, includes defining, documenting, auditing, and when necessary, quietly intervening in the use of gestures, such as pointing, presenting, flourishing, beckoning, silencing, and legally sensitive. Come closer swells. You know this one?

[01:42:37] Adam Cox: Yeah. Get over here.

[01:42:40] Kyle Risi: Her start raise is $50,000 a year. Plus unlimited popcorn. That's the perk.

[01:42:44] Adam Cox: That's a good perk.

[01:42:46] Kyle Risi: Eliza says, when asked her what her general approach to responsibility is, she says, with confidence and absolutely no evidence.

[01:42:53] Adam Cox: Okay.

[01:42:54] Kyle Risi: In a crisis, she's more likely to make it worse, but with confidence. And her favorite host [01:43:00] is that she could never choose.

[01:43:01] Adam Cox: Ah,

[01:43:02] Kyle Risi: that's nice,

[01:43:02] Adam Cox: right answer.

[01:43:03] Kyle Risi: But she is employed by me, which means that she needs to be definitive about who she wants to pick, and it has to be me.

[01:43:11] Adam Cox: Is that gonna come up in her appraisal?

[01:43:13] Kyle Risi: I think so.

[01:43:13] Kyle Risi: Would you like to read her day-to-day responsibilities?

[01:43:16] Adam Cox: Yes.

[01:43:16] Adam Cox: So she says that she serves as ringmaster gesture standardization reviewer reportedly directing to the senior ringmaster interim, and when necessarily indirectly to common sense. Yeah. Her daily responsibilities include auditing, evaluating, and occasionally intervening in the use of ringmaster gestures. This covers points, sweeps, flourishes, hat tips, baton indications, and the classic And now arm extension.

[01:43:44] Kyle Risi: Yes. Now.

[01:43:46] Adam Cox: Her stated aim is to ensure all gestures remain clear, authoritative, and circus appropriate, while avoiding anything even vaguely adjacent to aircraft signaling.

[01:43:58] Kyle Risi: Nope, that's [01:44:00] on the line

[01:44:00] Adam Cox: because at one time there's plane crashed

[01:44:03] Kyle Risi: right into the tent

[01:44:04] Adam Cox: in terms of major incidents and near misses or coverups. She says that what began as a tastefully sweep reportedly escalated into a full bodied, emotionally expressive arm arc. Eliza confirmed that while it was beautiful, it was not standardized, and following that instant acceptable drama to radius ratios were formally defined.

[01:44:24] Kyle Risi: Oh, nice.

[01:44:25] Adam Cox: Then there was the jazz hands containment event where she said that she loves jazz hands and she believes in jazz hands and respects jazz hands.

[01:44:33] Adam Cox: However, she clarifies that jazz hands are not as transactional gesture and cannot under any circumstances be used to conclude a segment unless the segment is in fact jazz.

[01:44:44] Kyle Risi: Amazing. So she likes jazz, but. There's no place for it in the circus

[01:44:48] Adam Cox: unless it is jazz.

[01:44:49] Kyle Risi: Unless it's jazz.

[01:44:52] Adam Cox: And then the over enthusiastic and now extension, a gesture escalated in both volume and Arman created [01:45:00] what Eliza described as an almost evangelical level of energy.

[01:45:04] Kyle Risi: Nice.

[01:45:05] Adam Cox: The matter was resolved through breath work and a reminder that grandeur need not require wind resistance.

[01:45:11] Kyle Risi: This is brilliant.

[01:45:12] Adam Cox: Eliza has confirmed that all incidents were handled with passion, precision, and a laminated guideline sheet she absolutely made for herself.

[01:45:20] Kyle Risi: I love a laminate like Babe, we're kindred spirits Here.

[01:45:24] Adam Cox: She rates her overall performance as exceeds expectations enthusiastically, and she reports that gesture clarity remains high. Jazz hands are contained, but not extinguished and flourish. Inflation is trending downward without sacrificing theatrical integrity.

[01:45:40] Adam Cox: Most importantly, no segments have accidentally transitioned into interpretive dance this quarter, and she adds that.

[01:45:46] Adam Cox: She continues to balance wonder with structure and drama, with discipline and notes that these leadership skills also serve her well in the Parent Teacher Association.

[01:45:55] Adam Cox: Eliza also wishes it to be known that she listens to the compendium through one [01:46:00] earbud and never missed an episode even during high stakes gesture review.

[01:46:04] Kyle Risi: Aw, thanks Eliza.

[01:46:06] Kyle Risi: She's one of our biggest fans.

[01:46:08] Adam Cox: Final statement.

[01:46:09] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm.

[01:46:10] Adam Cox: Standards matter. So does razzle-dazzle.

[01:46:14] Kyle Risi: It does. It really does.

[01:46:18] Adam Cox: Brilliant.

[01:46:18] Kyle Risi: And Eliza has actually included a photograph on her application, which means that she automatically got added to the teams page. So there she is in a beautiful top app.

[01:46:26] Adam Cox: Nice one, Eliza. Nice.

[01:46:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Brilliant guys. So if you want to be featured on a future episode, then remember, head over to the Compendium podcast and click Jobs in the footer and you can go ahead and send us your application.

[01:46:39] Kyle Risi: We will read the best ones on a future episode.

[01:46:43] Adam Cox: Brilliant. So shall we run the outro?

[01:46:45] Kyle Risi: Let's do it.

[01:46:46] Adam Cox: And that brings us to the end of another fascinating foray into the compendium and assembly of fascinating things.

[01:46:52] Kyle Risi: If today's episode it sparked your curiosity, then please do us a favor and add us on your favorite podcasting app. It really [01:47:00] does make a world of difference and helps other people like you find the show.

[01:47:03] Adam Cox: And for our dedicated freaks out there, don't forget. Next week's episode is already waiting for you on our Patreon. Completely free to access.

[01:47:10] Kyle Risi: And if you want even more, then join us Certified Freaks Tier and unlock our entire archive, get exclusive content and get a sneak peek of what's coming next.

[01:47:19] Kyle Risi: We want you to be part of our growing community.

[01:47:21] Adam Cox: We drop new episodes every Tuesday. So until then, just because you read it in a magazine or see it on this TV screen, don't make it factual.

[01:47:30] Kyle Risi: What is that?

[01:47:32] Adam Cox: That's another one of his songs.

[01:47:33] Kyle Risi: Oh, is it?

[01:47:36] Kyle Risi: Very good.

[01:47:37] Kyle Risi: See you next time.

[01:47:38] Adam Cox: See ya.