Guy Fawkes: Treason, Torture, and the Birth of Bonfire Night

[00:00:00] Kyle Risi: Remember, remember the 5th of November the gunpowder, treason and plot.

[00:00:06] Adam Cox: Guy Fawkes? Is it a holiday?

[00:00:08] Kyle Risi: It is a holiday, but a very strange one

[00:00:11] Adam Cox: A lot of international listeners they'll go, why are you celebrating a terrorist?

[00:00:15] Kyle Risi: That's right.

[00:00:17] Adam Cox: But also why after 400 years do we

[00:00:19] Kyle Risi: Take an effigy of a man throw it onto a bonfire and stand around like demonic witches watching a burn.

[00:00:26] Adam Cox: Yeah. I guess we've always had a thing about tradition, [00:00:30]

[00:00:30] Kyle Risi: this is actually a celebration against standing up to tyrannical governments, not really the message that we want to be sending today, especially when we think about the things that are going on in America.

[00:00:40] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:00:41] Kyle Risi: So, Adam, today I am gonna be telling you the real story of the Gun powder plot of 1605, but most importantly, how the man whose name is most remembered, wasn't even the mastermind behind this plot

[00:00:54] really?

[00:01:23] Welcome to the Compendium and Assembly of Fascinating Things, a weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough [00:01:30] information to stand your ground at any social gathering.

[00:01:33] Adam Cox: We explore stories from the darker corners of true crime, the hidden gems of history, and the jaw dropping deeds of extraordinary people.

[00:01:40] Kyle Risi: I'm Kyle Ey, your ringmaster for this week's episode,

[00:01:43] Adam Cox: and I am Adam Cox, the Bed of Nails Nail in ura. What? I make the Bed of Nails for The Magician, the Magic Show.

[00:01:51] Kyle Risi: That's not part of the Magician's. Act. Is it, that's more like the contortionists act

[00:01:56] Adam Cox: I dunno who my boss is. Then

[00:01:58] Kyle Risi: you point to the magician. [00:02:00] Yeah. And he is like, I don't know. Yeah.

[00:02:01] Adam Cox: Well, yeah, I've got put together a glue and hammer in all those nails.

[00:02:05] Kyle Risi: Yeah. But you would think you would just need to do that one. So that's more like a service. Oh, we need a better nails. Why do we need to employ you full time? That's,

[00:02:12] It just doesn't make sense to me.

[00:02:14] Adam Cox: I, I don't feel comfortable with that question.

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[00:02:41] Kyle Risi: the dlo Pass incident? We haven't mentioned that. We haven't mentioned it. I think maybe I just forgot that it was in that collection, but it's such a great one.

[00:02:50] I thought, wasn't

[00:02:51] Adam Cox: it aliens or didn't they think it was aliens at one point?

[00:02:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that was one of the, one is the, one of the theories, I guess. Yeah. Good

[00:02:58] Adam Cox: episode.

[00:02:58] Kyle Risi: And as a special thank you, our [00:03:00] certified Freak tier members now receive an exclusive key chain. All you gotta do is just DM us with your address and we'll send one straight to your door so we can always be dangling near your crotch.

[00:03:11] Adam Cox: And lastly, guys, please follow us on your favorite podcast app and leave us a review. Your support really helps us, find other new people that like you love a good tale of the unexpected.

[00:03:21] Kyle Risi: Absolutely. So, Adam, that's enough for the housekeeping because today on the Compendium, we are diving into an assembly of, [00:03:30] remember, remember the 5th of November.

[00:03:33] Adam Cox: Guy Fawkes?

[00:03:35] Yes. Wow. I got one this week.

[00:03:37] Kyle Risi: Like, well, I mean, how could you not get one? I mean, it's probably one of the most popular holidays we have here in the uk. Is it a holiday?

[00:03:43] It is a holiday, but it is a very strange

[00:03:46] one,

[00:03:46] isn't it? Like for our international listeners who don't know what Guy Fox is. Did you want to have a, crack at explaining it?

[00:03:52] Adam Cox: I feel like a lot of international listeners will know, but they'll go,

[00:03:56] why are you celebrating a guy who tried to blow up the [00:04:00] houses of Parliament?

[00:04:00] Yeah, exactly. Why 400 years ago, a terrorist, why are you celebrating a terrorist?

[00:04:05] Kyle Risi: That's right.

[00:04:06] So for our international listeners who don't know what Guy Fox is, basically every year on the 5th of November, Britain and a fair few commonwealth countries come together to like bonfires, kids get handed sparklers like tiny little wizards, everyone. Chance, that very famous chant that I opened this episode with, remember, remember the 5th of November at least once, either on the night or just [00:04:30] in the lead up.

[00:04:30] And at some point we will also take an effigy of a man and literally throw it onto a bonfire and stand around like demonic witches watching a burn.

[00:04:40] Adam Cox: Whilst tucking into a hot dog and going on a, like a fairy go round,

[00:04:45] Kyle Risi: I don't know if I, the merry-go-round is a given. It's not always a merry-go-round.

[00:04:49] Adam Cox: Not always, but there's always a bonfire. There's usually some sort of fun fare rides

[00:04:53] Kyle Risi: and growing up I kind of sort of knew why we celebrated Guy Fork Night. It was something to do with, of course, the great gun powder plot [00:05:00] of 1605, which spoiler alert does not go well, but add and beyond that. I don't really know what kind of happened, who even was Guy Fox, the man that this holiday is named after.

[00:05:11] And I guess for both of us, that curiosity kind of solidified itself. When, we went to the London Dungeons. I actually thought it was an actual dungeon used in London to house kind of some of the most notorious criminals throughout history. So I took you to this thing. It was gonna be like an educational kind of [00:05:30] thing, but actually turns out it's just an indoor theme park.

[00:05:33] Adam Cox: Pretty much. Yeah.

[00:05:34] Kyle Risi: Still, this is where we got that itch to actually learn more about their full story of why we set an effigy of some random guy, a light, as we fall into this trance, watching him burn. And at the dungeons, they did cover the story, but only really briefly.

[00:05:48] They didn't kind of explain the context and mostly just focus on Guy Fork's torture after his arrest, which to be fair seems to be pretty common in the Middle Ages. They did like a bit of torture, didn't they?

[00:05:59] Adam Cox: Yeah. He steal [00:06:00] some bread. A little torture. Little torture.

[00:06:01] Kyle Risi: He's a kid for God's sake. Yeah,

[00:06:03] but also when at the dungeons, at one point the jailer had singled me out. He made me sit on that torture chair and then explained how they got Guy Fawkes to confess to carrying out this failed plot. Do you remember that bit?

[00:06:16] Adam Cox: I do remember that bit. Everyone there really enjoyed that bit.

[00:06:18] Kyle Risi: They did. I was very compliant. I was very happy to spread my legs. Yeah, you did Bend over.

[00:06:23] Adam Cox: Legs are Kimber.

[00:06:24] Kyle Risi: They basically showed us this metal contraption called Do you, do you know what that contraption was called? Wasn't it the pear? [00:06:30] Yes. The pair of anguish and basically it looks like a metal light bulb they put in your mouth. They then crank it wider and wider. So basically your teeth shatter, your jaw is dislocated and if you're unlucky that there'll be a lot of blood there. 'cause it'll literally rips your jaw apart.

[00:06:48] Adam Cox: That wasn't the only hole that it can go in.

[00:06:50] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Because then he proceeded to explain how it could also be used up my bum.

[00:06:55] And that's when everyone really enjoyed it. Exactly. But for what purpose? I have no idea other than a [00:07:00] bloody good time. And I use the word bloody intentionally because ew, I imagine that will, uh, rip you apart. But even after all that, we still kind of left not really knowing what exactly happened. Like who was Guy Fawkes, what was the purpose of the gun plowed or plot, and why did it all go so spectacularly wrong?

[00:07:17] Adam Cox: But most importantly. Why after

[00:07:19] Kyle Risi: more than

[00:07:20] Adam Cox: 400 years do we still

[00:07:21] Kyle Risi: celebrate this holiday by lighting bonfires and watching a manhap dummy burn.

[00:07:26] Adam Cox: I, I guess we've always had a thing about tradition, something we did back [00:07:30] then, it seemed really fun at the time because I guess anything, anything like that that we celebrated was always a, you know, we watched people die back in the dark ages.

[00:07:37] Yeah, that's true. Entertainment.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:39] So

[00:07:40] it's now we've just added, like I said, hot dogs and now it's okay. We take our kids to see.

[00:07:45] Kyle Risi: But it is weird, there's not many other holidays other than Christmas that we celebrate this many years later. Do you know what I mean? It's just wild.

[00:07:53] Adam Cox: It's, yeah. I Is the tradition even longer than Christmas in terms of Christmas in today's sense? 'Cause we probably didn't have [00:08:00] Santa or Father Christmas. In the same way as we did 400 years ago. Right.

[00:08:03] Kyle Risi: Uh, I guess, yeah, I guess not. I dunno. Maybe that's a whole episode on itself.

[00:08:07] So, Adam, today I am gonna be telling you the real story of the Gun powder plot of 1605, why it happened, but most importantly, the historical context that laid the foundation for it. I'll tell you how it happened and then how it failed and why

[00:08:23] Adam Cox: Guy Fox, the man

[00:08:25] Kyle Risi: whose name is most remembered, wasn't even the mastermind [00:08:30] behind this plot.

[00:08:30] Really?

[00:08:31] Mm-hmm. And by the end, you might even have a very different perspective on those fireworks and bonfires because

[00:08:38] this entire celebration is actually a celebration against standing up to tyrannical governments,

[00:08:44] Adam Cox: which is

[00:08:44] Kyle Risi: not really the message that we want to be sending to people today, especially when

[00:08:48] we think about the things that are going on in America.

[00:08:51] Adam Cox: I was gonna say, there's a few people that are doing that, and it's not ending well,

[00:08:54] Kyle Risi: exactly. But all I can say is that if you're Catholic, you might want to [00:09:00] skip next year's bonfire. Really? Mm-hmm. Okay. A lot of Catholics in this. Oh, and by the way, we start this episode with the famous rhyme, right?

[00:09:08] Mm-hmm. Remember, remember the 5th of November. Do you know how it ends?

[00:09:12] Adam Cox: Yeah. Gunpowder, treason and plot.

[00:09:15] Kyle Risi: I am shocked. I wrote that down. Going, Adam's gonna love this. He's not gonna know how it ends. I had no idea. There was more to the rhyme. I think I'm probably gonna

[00:09:24] Adam Cox: know more about this episode than you do.

[00:09:26] Kyle Risi: Well, the it goes, remember, remember the 5th of November, the [00:09:30] gunpowder, treason and plot. I know of no reason why the gunpowder treason should never be forgot.

[00:09:37] Adam Cox: Yeah, I forgot about that bit,

[00:09:38] Kyle Risi: but yeah, exactly. My point is there is an irony in the fact that the whole reason Guy Fork's Night exists is to never forget what happened during the great gunpowder plots of 1605. And yet, I don't know a single person other than you who knows half of it, who remembers the rest of that rhyme. The very thing that we're not supposed to forget.

[00:09:58] Adam Cox: It probably doesn't come up in that, in [00:10:00] conversation that much, apart from once a year

[00:10:01] Kyle Risi: exactly. But it comes up every year, but it's always that first line. Yeah. Weird.

[00:10:06] So, Adam, to understand the significance of the gunpowder plot of 1605 and why it matters so much, we have to go back way back to the days.

[00:10:15] King Henry vii.

[00:10:17] Adam Cox: The days of your,

[00:10:18] Kyle Risi: the days were that, were the times other Adam,

[00:10:20] Adam Cox: uh, yester year

[00:10:24] Kyle Risi: Very good.

[00:10:24] Specifically, we're going back between 1533 and 1540, when Henry [00:10:30] decided that he was done with Rome and he wanted full control of the English church.

[00:10:36] That decision ended up bringing about a significantly different version of the Reformation that was raging through Europe at the time, and subsequently kicked off decades of religious chaos across England.

[00:10:47] How much do you know about the Reformation now? Not specifically talking about the Reformation in context of King Henry viii. I mean, the wider reformation of what was going on in Europe at the [00:11:00] time.

[00:11:00] Adam Cox: Uh, no. Only about King Henry and that he created the Church of England in order to divorce one of his wives.

[00:11:06] Kyle Risi: Yes, that's right. But when we talk about the English Reformation, we're talking only about one part of a much bigger movement that was sweeping across Europe, a movement that aimed to reform the Catholic church, which many believed to become extremely immoral and corrupt at the time.

[00:11:21] There was this belief that the Catholic church had become far too obsessed with the rituals and traditions that didn't really matter in the modern times of that particular day, but [00:11:30] also, and. As this will always do it, the Catholic church had become far too greedy for money.

[00:11:36] One of the best examples of this was the sale of indulgences where the Catholic church were basically selling certificates that would absolve you of your sins. So basically, if you have sex with a pig, that's fine. You buy an indulgence and then all is forgiven.

[00:11:51] And it got to the point where you could literally buy indulgences for dead relatives. So their sins would then be wiped clean and they could just waltz through the gates of [00:12:00] heaven as if nothing had happened.

[00:12:01] Adam Cox: How does that work then? You are buying an indulgence. Mm-hmm. What is an indulgence?

[00:12:05] Kyle Risi: Basically it completely defeats the entire point of being a Catholic Which was to live a moral existence, you were supposed to earn indulgences through good deeds and prayer, living a charitable life and being a good person, right? Mm-hmm. And at the end of your life, God would look through the pages of your judgment and go, you are a great Christian. You can come into heaven. That's your indulgence. You earn those indulgences.

[00:12:27] Adam Cox: So it's almost like a, you're building up a scorecard of [00:12:30] things that you're doing throughout your life. And if you get over 80% or whatever, exactly, great. You can go through. Mm-hmm. But if you don't get 80%, then you need to somehow buy some indulgences or you could buy indulgences from the Catholic church.

[00:12:42] And how do you buy them if they're not actually tangible with money? Oh, okay. So you just basically go like, here's 10 grand, or a bag of gold or a sheep. Mm-hmm. Um, or sheep can my, can my mom now come in? Yeah.

[00:12:52] Kyle Risi: And they give you a certificate and that absorbs you of all of your sins for that particular crime or whatever.

[00:12:57] Adam Cox: Oh. So you need to get your indulgence before [00:13:00] you die.

[00:13:00] Kyle Risi: but it got to the point where they were literally selling indulgences for your dead relatives.

[00:13:05] Adam Cox: Okay, so now I see why it's very corrupt.

[00:13:06] Kyle Risi: And basically this was an effort for the Catholic church to raise more money, mostly because they want to, believe it or not, fund the building of St. Peter's Basilica. In the Vatican City. Oh, so the fact that that building exists is largely due to these indulgences that they were selling throughout the middle ages.

[00:13:26] So this, along with a bunch of other shady [00:13:30] practices, ended up setting the stage for a German theology professor named Martin Luther, who in 1517 posted on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, a document containing 95 theses. Basically, this was a list of complaints about the church's corruption, especially around the selling of these indulgences.

[00:13:51] And this ends up sparking huge debates across Europe. And in the end, this becomes the catalyst for Christians making very persuasive arguments for breaking [00:14:00] away from Catholicism entirely and suddenly Protestantism is born.

[00:14:05] It spreads like wildfire across the entire continent. And it was, by all accounts, a moral and spiritual revolution led by very frustrated Catholics at the time.

[00:14:16] Now that's very simplistic kind of way of explaining what the Reformation was. But in England, what was happening across Europe, saw some dissemination and support, but it didn't really lead to a conscious, organized attempt to [00:14:30] really wanna break away from Rome.

[00:14:32] That was until Henry VII decided that his marriage to Catherine of Agan was no longer working for him, and he decided that he wanted a divorce or technically an annulment.

[00:14:44] At the time he'd been married to Catherine for round about 20 years, and up until this point, she and I say she, because as history has taught us, it's always the woman's fault, she had failed to produce a male heir, and so desperate to keep the Tudor bloodline [00:15:00] going. Henry writes to Pope Clements asking for an annulment. His claim is that the marriage was invalid because Catherine was previously married to his brother, which was King Arthur.

[00:15:11] So he was the original heir, but he died. And then so King Henry VII came to power.

[00:15:17] Adam Cox: He had his seconds, basically. Yes. That's so weird to think. Oh, my brother was supposed to be king. You are married to him.

[00:15:23] Kyle Risi: Well, you gotta think of it from this way. Right? there was a lot of wars and battles going on between Spain, France, and [00:15:30] the western kind of countries at the time.

[00:15:31] So you build these allegiances by saying, okay, we'll join our houses together. I'll marry your daughter, you marry my son, blah, blah, blah. Arthur ends up dying, they still want to kind of create that allegiance. So it's very political. Mm-hmm. And so Catherine ends up marrying Henry instead.

[00:15:46] Adam Cox: I see. And she never had a child, obviously, with.

[00:15:48] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Well, according to him, because she was married to his brother, this was apparently against the Bible. And so this was the reason why God was not given [00:16:00] him a male heir.

[00:16:01] So Pope Clements flat out refuses Henry's request, and he tells him that under Julius ii, the church had already provided a special dispensation for Henry to marry Catherine at his own request.

[00:16:14] And so while this was technically against the Bible, Pope Clements was essentially saying, this is your own doing, and so you have to deal with it.

[00:16:22] Adam Cox: Right. Okay.

[00:16:23] Kyle Risi: But Henry argued that the dispensation relied purely on the notion that Catherine and Arthur had never [00:16:30] consummated their marriage. But now. Henry had reason to believe that they did, and so he wanted the Pope to anno the marriage.

[00:16:39] The Pope, however, was not having any of it, and he still maintained this refusal.

[00:16:43] Adam Cox: They totally consummated like, what else are you gonna do? Don't they normally get people in to watch?

[00:16:48] Kyle Risi: I think that's more kind of like French. During King Louis the 14th, which is probably around about the same time, I don't know.

[00:16:53] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:16:54] Kyle Risi: So Henry is outraged and humiliated. He decides that he was completely done with [00:17:00] Rome, and so he decides that he's going to jump on the bandwagon and he's going to embrace the Reformation movement that was taking place across Europe at that time.

[00:17:09] He Separates from the Catholic church entirely through the passing of the act of supremacy, where he declares himself the supreme head of the Church of England, and officially England breaks away from Rome.

[00:17:21] Adam Cox: I see.

[00:17:22] Kyle Risi: And so with that, Henry is finally free to null his own marriage to Catherine. And when he did, he immediately ends up shacking up [00:17:30] with, can you remember? And Berlin. And Berlin, yes. Key detail here is that technically this isn't a divorce, it is an annulment, which meant that the marriage just never existed at all.

[00:17:41] Yeah, but everyone

[00:17:41] Adam Cox: says divorced.

[00:17:42] Kyle Risi: They do. So the famous line is divorce beheaded died. Divorce beheaded survived.

[00:17:46] It's really more like an old beheaded, died an old beheaded survive. But of course doesn't quite have the same ring to it, you know? But it is now historically accurate to say it's an annulment.

[00:17:58] Adam Cox: Ah, [00:18:00] okay. I guess if this thing wasn't going on in Europe at the time and he wasn't getting a lot of options from Rome, I wonder if he would've just bumped her off.

[00:18:08] Kyle Risi: Yeah, probably. He probably would've smeared in some way.

[00:18:11] Adam Cox: She was lucky that, you know, it was all going to shit in Europe.

[00:18:13] Kyle Risi: Uh, yeah. Yeah, she was, she was. So, I was like, what? What's going on there? Yes, she was lucky because otherwise she would've been beheaded, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:21] And so now England is Protestants. Catholics are now being systematically oppressed and marginalized, which only ramps up harder as Catholics refuse to [00:18:30] just sit back and let this happen.

[00:18:31] After Henry dies, England spirals into literally decades of religious whiplash. Every time the crown changes, so does the country's faith.

[00:18:40] If the mnemonic is Catholic, then Protestants are systematically persecuted. If they're Protestant, then the Catholics then go back to being persecuted. So it's just this constant flux with generations swinging between being on top and then being hunted basically. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:55] Henry does eventually have a son with, do you remember who

[00:18:59] Adam Cox: one of [00:19:00] his wives,

[00:19:00] Kyle Risi: is it Ann Berlin Lynn, or is it someone else?

[00:19:03] Adam Cox: I feel like it's someone else, right?

[00:19:04] Kyle Risi: It is, yeah. Jane Seymour, that's his third wife, she ends up dying in childbirth. So she's the one who died and their son is called Edward iv, and he's basically the first monarch to be raised fully Protestant.

[00:19:16] But when Edward falls gravely Ill as a teenager, he's terrified that the throne will eventually pass to his sister Mary, who is a devout Catholic. He initially wants the succession to skip Mary altogether and [00:19:30] go straight to Elizabeth, which will later become Elizabeth, the first, who is of course Protestant.

[00:19:36] But after some skullduggery and outside influence, Edward declares his cousin, lady Jane Gray, the next queen of England, upon his death. A few weeks later, Edward eventually dies. Lady Jane becomes queen, and she's about 17 at the time. So she's literally a teenager and her reign, Adam lasts nine days.

[00:19:59] Adam Cox: I was gonna say, it doesn't [00:20:00] last very long 'cause it, no, it's not long before Elizabeth takes over.

[00:20:02] Kyle Risi: Well, Mary. Has Jane arrested and executed in the Tower of London and now England has a new queen. Who is Mary the first, right?

[00:20:12] She restores England back to Catholicism. She reconnects with Rome and she starts burning Protestant dissenters at the stake.

[00:20:19] And like I'm talking hundreds of them across a five-year range. She earns the nickname Bloody Mary for that specific reason.

[00:20:26] And it's just purely burning Protestants. So [00:20:30] again, it's now the Catholics that are back on top and now Protestants are being persecuted systematically.

[00:20:35] Adam Cox: That's crazy. Even in the same family, they're not all believing the same sort of faith.

[00:20:39] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Yeah. So Mary eventually dies after five years. The crown then passes to a half sister, who is Elizabeth. She is Protestant, extremely politically savvy, and she's determined to swing the pendulum back the other way. She restores the Church of England and she starts persecuting Catholics now. And so it's just this [00:21:00] endless religious ping pong.

[00:21:02] Elizabeth, of course, as we know, she never marries. She never has any children. For this, she ends up earning the nickname the Virgin Queen, which is great for a public image, but not so much for a succession because it means that if she dies childless, the crown will pass on to her cousin, who is Mary Queen of Scots, who is again, a devout Catholic.

[00:21:23] So it's a bit problematic. We kind of want her to have a Protestant child just for stability for the country. [00:21:30] Right.

[00:21:30] Adam Cox: If this was, now, I feel like it would be a perfect reality TV show. Like it's like succession Find, find the queen. Yeah. A successor and she'd have a load of bachelors eligible men and she would have to, try and raise an air.

[00:21:43] Kyle Risi: Yeah. but Elizabeth, she lives a long time, too long for some, and so it's too much time for them to wait for her to die. Especially amongst the Catholics, they don't wanna kind of risk her having a child. Mary Queen of Scots and her supporters, they begin plotting an assassination attempt [00:22:00] against Elizabeth in order to restore Catholicism back to kind of England.

[00:22:04] It's a whole thing They, even made a movie about it. But in the end, Elizabeth finds out and she orders Mary's execution for treason. Now, you'd think that this might resolve the problem, but it does still leave the question of succession wide open because Elizabeth, as we know, she doesn't produce an heir.

[00:22:22] And so when she dies in 1603 at the age of 69, which is kind of ironic, considering she's the Virgin Queen, the [00:22:30] throne then passes to Mary Queen of Scott's son. His name is James.

[00:22:36] At this point? He's already been King of Scotland for about 35 years. As King James the sixth, but now he's also James, the first of England. It's very confusing. So he's kind of like King James, the sixth of Scotland, but King James the first of England. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:49] What this means is that for the very first time, England, Scotland, and Ireland are all ruled by a single monarch.

[00:22:55] It's not officially the United Kingdom just yet. They still have of course, their [00:23:00] own separate sovereign states with their own individual laws. But James' Reign definitely lays that groundwork for that to eventually happen under Queen Anne like a century later.

[00:23:09] Adam Cox: And is he a Protestant?

[00:23:10] Kyle Risi: Even though his mother Mary, queen of Scots was Catholic. James the first is actually Protestant.

[00:23:15] Adam Cox: I knew it.

[00:23:16] Kyle Risi: And why? What do you mean by that?

[00:23:18] Adam Cox: Well, it just seems to be yo-yoing between Catholicism and Protestants. And it's just so strange that there's quite a divide even within people's families.

[00:23:27] Kyle Risi: But James the first being a Protestant, this actually [00:23:30] reassures many of the Protestants in England that the country isn't about to flip again, but for Catholics, this also sparks a degree of cautious hope.

[00:23:38] The thinking there is that because his mother was Catholic and the fact that King James, I first's wife and of Denmark had converted to Catholicism, then maybe James was going to be more lenient than his predecessors.

[00:23:51] Mm-hmm. This excitement also grows into genuine optimism that, he might even switch back to Catholicism altogether. After James starts appointing [00:24:00] Catholic sympathizers to government roles across the country as a result, England stops enforcing, reuse sea fines.

[00:24:07] Adam Cox: Recu seed. I don't think I've heard of that.

[00:24:09] Kyle Risi: Basically they are penalties for skipping Mandatory Church of England services. Oh. Like you have to go to church every Sunday or whenever it was by law.

[00:24:20] Okay.

[00:24:20] They also started to notice that no new anti-Catholic laws are being passed. Priests are no longer having to stay underground. These things are all still technically [00:24:30] illegal under James the verse, but they're now just being more tolerated. There's a genuine hope among Catholics that he might one day convert

[00:24:38] Adam Cox: back to Catholicism.

[00:24:39] Kyle Risi: Back to Catholicism.

[00:24:41] But here's the problem. James's leniency isn't about compassion towards Catholics in any way.

[00:24:47] He's lazy.

[00:24:48] No, it's purely about keeping the peace. this is why his moderate attitude doesn't really lead to any meaningful change across the country.

[00:24:55] So a small group of very frustrated Catholic clergy start to lose [00:25:00] patience and they decide if persuasion won't work. There may be something more drastic needed to be done to persuade him Out of this two very separate conspiracies emerge unimaginatively named the main plots and the by plots.

[00:25:16] Adam Cox: Okay, So two plots to take down James or the government.

[00:25:20] Kyle Risi: Yes. So basically the main plots goal was to remove James the first from power, either by assassination or force application, and then replace him with his cousin, lady [00:25:30] Arabella Stewart.

[00:25:31] Ironically, remember this is a Catholic plot. Mm-hmm. And they wanna replace James the first with what you might think is another Catholic Right.

[00:25:39] Adam Cox: That would make sense.

[00:25:40] Kyle Risi: But Lady Arabella Stewart is technically a Protestant.

[00:25:44] Adam Cox: So then why would they choose her?

[00:25:45] Kyle Risi: The thinking was that she would probably be more pliable than someone like James. I see. So they thought that maybe if they could kind of instill her onto the throne, then they could use her as a puppet to change the laws and things like that.

[00:25:57] Adam Cox: Right. Okay. But it feels like James is doing kind of a [00:26:00] good thing. I dunno if it's just him not wanting to upset stuff, but trying to keep a happy medium.

[00:26:05] Kyle Risi: Yeah. He doesn't hate Catholics. His wife's a Catholic, his mother was a Catholic. It doesn't really care too much.

[00:26:10] It means a lot more to people. In kind of England, but at the same time, a lot of people are at a disadvantage. They've been marginalized. But he's too rich and wealthy and famous to really give a shit.

[00:26:21] Adam Cox: I was trying to work out if he's being a good monarch by not like driving his, I dunno, motive forward or whatever. But it sounds like he's not trying to protect people or anything. He's just not doing anything about it. Yeah.

[00:26:29] Kyle Risi: He, [00:26:30] yeah. And he's more tolerant, so he is doing something about it, but it's almost like he just doesn't care.

[00:26:33] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:26:34] Kyle Risi: But it's not enough for some Catholics, hence why these plots existed. Of course this plan collapses even before it starts.

[00:26:41] And it's purely down to the fact that someone starts talking, which is a recurring theme in this story.

[00:26:47] Adam Cox: Who's the rat?

[00:26:47] Kyle Risi: Uh, too many people, too many people get involved in these plots and it just causes a shit show. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:52] Meanwhile, the by plot unfolds at the same time, and this one is led by two priests, William Watson and William Clark. So the [00:27:00] two Williams, the two willies. their plan is to kidnap James, lock him in the terror of London, and then force him to agree to greater tolerances towards Catholics.

[00:27:09] Right, okay.

[00:27:10] Which strategically speaking is idiotic because all James will need to do is go Sure, absolutely. I'll totally do that.

[00:27:19] And then once they release him, he'll just execute everyone involved.

[00:27:22] Adam Cox: This is why they don't let priests plot things ' cause they don't think things through. I was gonna say to them, and you promise that you will let us go.

[00:27:28] Kyle Risi: Pinky promise. [00:27:30] Yes. Unsurprisingly, this plan also fails again because people talk and so in the end, both Watson and Clark, the two willies are executed.

[00:27:40] Now here's where things get worse because James is obviously furious at this. Right. There's been two plots that have been un foiled by Catholics to try and remove him as king.

[00:27:50] So he basically sets off to declare his utter detestation of all Catholics, across all three countries. He basically goes ahead and expels all the [00:28:00] priests and the Jesuits from England, he reinstates the heavy enforcements of Recu fines. Those are the same fines for skipping Sunday services, which honestly, actually I would've totally been happy to pay. I'm a massive fan of paying for convenience. Like if it's a couple dollars, I would be like, yeah, here's my $2. I don't need to go to church.

[00:28:16] Adam Cox: Yeah. But if you've gotta do that every week, and also I imagine people were probably quite poor. Yes. So the money that they needed was for food and stuff like that.

[00:28:23] Kyle Risi: The reality, yes. I'm projecting myself as a rich, wealthy kind of medieval nobleman.

[00:28:29] Adam Cox: It's nice [00:28:30] that you think that you'd be rich,

[00:28:32] Kyle Risi: but yeah, back then only the wealth could really afford this. So if you were poor, you would have to go to church and cry about it.

[00:28:38] Adam Cox: So he is done a complete 180, but understandably because people are trying to kill him.

[00:28:43] Kyle Risi: Literally two. Yeah, two plots un foiled and they're trying to kill him.

[00:28:46] So England is basically back to taking a hard line against Catholics. But for one man, this crackdown becomes the final straw. And his name is Robert Kasby. He's got quite an interesting lineage actually. He's actually descended from [00:29:00] William Kasby a high ranking counselor to King Richard iii. That's the same Kaby Shakespeare writes about in the play. Richard ii. So Robert's literally a guy that Shakespeare wrote about, ah, what a great legacy to have.

[00:29:12] Can you imagine having one of your ancestors written about in a Shakespeare play?

[00:29:16] Adam Cox: Yes. Like I'm mean Shakespeare. Yeah. True story.

[00:29:19] Kyle Risi: Do you think that gets you more pang? Did I say that right? Pang? It's puntang.

[00:29:26] Adam Cox: I, I don't think you should say that again.

[00:29:28] Kyle Risi: I can pull that off, can I? No, you [00:29:30] cannot.

[00:29:30] So Robert is of course, Catholic by heritage, coming from a long line of them. He's not hard line, but like many, he doesn't appreciate that Catholics are being persecuted, left, right, and center.

[00:29:39] He ends up enrolling at Oxford. And typically in order to get your degree at graduation, you are required to take an oath of supremacy.

[00:29:48] Basically, you have to publicly swear allegiance to the monarchy as the supreme governor of the Church of England. But Robert refuses this, like I said, he's seen how badly his father was treated for being a proud [00:30:00] Catholic, repeatedly being arrested in jail for refusing to pay those fines when he didn't attend church.

[00:30:05] So Robert decides that he's just gonna drop out of Oxford just before he graduates. So hit me thinks, well, I already have all the information, I already have all the knowledge, so why do I just need a piece of Parchman to prove it? So he just decides to drop out?

[00:30:17] Adam Cox: Well, normally if you want a job, they'll probably ask, oh, can we get your certificate?

[00:30:20] Kyle Risi: It doesn't really matter to him because he ends up marrying a Protestant woman called Catherine Lee. They're both Catholic sympathizers and together they [00:30:30] routinely kind of hide priests and help Catholic kind of practice in secret.

[00:30:33] They're both really wealthy as well. However, five years after they get married, Catherine ends up dying and through her grandmother Kasby inherits a huge fortune enough that he can easily pay any fines that get thrown at him. But also he's essentially got fu money. Basically. he doesn't really need a job. He's got this massive estate that he can live off, he can earn money from. Like he's just filthy rich at this point.

[00:30:58] Adam Cox: Lucky

[00:30:59] Kyle Risi: [00:31:00] and amongst the two war in communities, Catholics and Protestants, he's really well liked. He gets on both with Catholics and Protestants. He's known as this bridge of diplomacy between the two communities. He's extraordinarily charismatic, he's persuasive, he's earnest. The kind of bloke that would make you feel like the next big idea is in fact moral and feasible.

[00:31:19] So he's good at settling arguments, et cetera, between I see. Between the two warring communities.

[00:31:23] So in 1601, just before Queen Elizabeth dies, he decides to join the Essex rebellion and [00:31:30] uprising against Queen Elizabeth the first.

[00:31:32] This, of

[00:31:32] course, fails miserably, he ends up being captured after getting severely wounded. has fined 4,000 marks, which is roughly the equivalent of 6 million pounds in today's money. Wow. That's a shit ton of money. He has fu money and so he can pay the fine, no way, but it does take a massive chink out of his wealth, and so he's even forced to sell part of his estate to cover the fine.

[00:31:57] Mm-hmm. So when James, I first [00:32:00] arrives and the main plot and the bi plot end up messing a shit ton of things up for Catholics because of course any progress towards a leniency for Catholics is now completely lost. King James decides to propose legislation that will effectively make Catholics non-legal persons across England.

[00:32:17] This means that they won't be able to earn any income from their estates, but also they won't be able to pass on any of their wealth to their kids.

[00:32:25] Adam Cox: Wow. That's, that is like, this guy was actually not too bothered. Mm-hmm. And now [00:32:30] he's like really going after them more than any other Harmonic beforehand.

[00:32:33] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I think he just needs to do something to kind of maybe deter other people from doing other plots. I mean, two plots in succession, it's a bit worrying,

[00:32:42] Adam Cox: That is. But to now say that people that are Catholic are no longer really a

[00:32:47] Kyle Risi: A person.

[00:32:47] Adam Cox: A person,

[00:32:48] Kyle Risi: So basically when you die, everything that you own would literally just go straight to the crown.

[00:32:54] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:54] Kyle Risi: So Robert decides something has to be done. he knows the main plot and the bi plot failed, but he thinks to [00:33:00] himself that maybe I could learn from those. Basically, don't recruit any priests as part of your plan.

[00:33:05] They're terrible terrorists.

[00:33:06] He links up with an old mate, Thomas Wintour. Uh, he's basically a well educated soldier with diplomatic experience Kasby instructs Thomas to go and visit King Philip III of Spain and ask him for his help in ending James' tyranny towards the Catholics.

[00:33:22] Spain though basically refuses, they say that with all the warring that's been going on between them and England over the [00:33:30] centuries, they've been left essentially bankrupt. And right now they're actually really grateful for the peace. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:36] So they decide that we can't help you. I'm sorry. So Robert, then devises plan B on the 20th of May, 1604.

[00:33:43] Robert invites four friends to meet him at the Duck and Drake Tavern in London.

[00:33:48] There to meet him is Thomas Winter, our diplomatic soldier. Also, there is Thomas Percy, who is a cousin of the Earl of Northumberland, which means that Thomas has [00:34:00] connections in court and is basically able to move within royal circles without raising any suspicion, right?

[00:34:06] Mm-hmm. My cousin, the Earl of Northumberland, he's like in that office over there and people are just like, great, you hit see family. So he's got these connections, he's basically our insider. He's our mole,

[00:34:16] Adam Cox: right?

[00:34:17] Kyle Risi: There's also John Wright. He is a proficient swordsman, mysterious. He's elusive. He's quick like a cat.

[00:34:23] And finally

[00:34:24] Adam Cox: Guy Fox.

[00:34:25] Kyle Risi: We have a guy called Captain Gdo Fox. Oh, that's his [00:34:30] full name. Yeah. Gido. So 3000 words in and we finally meet Guy Fox

[00:34:35] Gillo, or Guy comes from basically a prominent Yorkshire family. He ends up moving to the Netherlands where he's been living for the last 10 years. There he enlisted in the Catholic Spanish army and he's basically known for his bravery being unnervingly calm, under pressure, and just so as it happens. Being an expert with explosives,

[00:34:53] Adam Cox: that will come in handy. So that's why they roped him in. Mm-hmm. So we've got the guy that's obviously got connections in Parliament. Yeah.

[00:34:59] Kyle Risi: You've [00:35:00] got Thomas Wintel. He is our diplomat. Okay. So he's, he's also quite powerful and he's good at kind of he negotiating.

[00:35:07] Adam Cox: I see.

[00:35:07] then you've got Guy Fawkes, who's obviously great with the explosives. Mm-hmm. He knows.

[00:35:10] Kyle Risi: And you've got Jack Wright as well, who's a good swordsman.

[00:35:12] Adam Cox: Okay.

[00:35:13] Kyle Risi: So Gatsby invites them all because each one of them brings these individual skills that he thinks that they need.

[00:35:19] Before he entrusts them with his plan. He each has them swear and oath of secrecy on Holy Relic, a Bible probably

[00:35:26] Adam Cox: This is like Mission impossible. If it was back in medieval times [00:35:30] or two times. I can imagine it's the setup that just brought these four unlikely people together to take down the parliament.

[00:35:37] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And I think they're, to a degree, they know each other, Even though Guy Fawkes has been living in the Netherlands, he's really close to Jack Wright. So that's how he gets pulled into the fold, probably a recommendation. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:46] So once they've sworn their oath of secrecy on this Holy Relic, Robert then tells them that he wants to blow up the Houses of Parliament, kill the king, and wipe out the entire government all in one devastating blow.

[00:35:59] Adam Cox: Wow. [00:36:00] That's

[00:36:00] Kyle Risi: ambitious. He doesn't know every detail just yet, but he does have a sense of the scale and destruction of what he wants from this plan.

[00:36:09] Adam Cox: He just wants a loud bang.

[00:36:10] Kyle Risi: A loud bang, and he wants the King Dead. And Guy Fox is there because of course he is the explosive man.

[00:36:15] Adam Cox: Sure. And so is he hoping or he's planning that the King's gonna be in the Houses of Parliament at the time that it's blown up?

[00:36:21] Kyle Risi: Yes. He's gonna make very sure that he's going to be in the Houses of Parliament at the time.

[00:36:25] Adam Cox: Gotcha.

[00:36:25] Kyle Risi: So they all agree to move forward. The first practical step is to rent a house near [00:36:30] Westminster so they can obviously be close to the action. Guy Fawkes is enlisted as the caretaker of their property under the alias of John Johnson, which admittedly is one of the worst fake names you can possibly have. The landlord's like, so what name should I put in the Tennessee? And he's like, John. Okay.

[00:36:47] And surname. Um, John said,

[00:36:52] Adam Cox: I wonder if that's more convincing back then by having a fake name. Yeah. That's just the same name twice. Yeah.

[00:36:59] Kyle Risi: Then [00:37:00] Thomas Percy, he uses his connections to the Earl of Northumberland to secure a job, as a royal bodyguard. And so he's obviously, as I said, our insider.

[00:37:08] claims that Guy Fawkes or John Johnson is his man servant, which obviously gives guy the freedom to come and go in these same spaces that he has the right to go in without anyone raising suspicion. People like, who the fuck are you? And he'll be like, I'm John Johnson. I'm Thomas Percy's Manser. It's like, okay, as you were,

[00:37:26] Adam Cox: sounds sexual as my, a mans servant called John [00:37:30] Johnson.

[00:37:30] I mean Johnson again. See? Yeah. It's just not just a little bit gay.

[00:37:33] Kyle Risi: It's, yeah, there's some kind of home erotic fiction in there. So then they talk, logistics guy walks 'em through how much gunpowder they'll need to level the House of Lords. He estimates roughly around about 36 barrels. Which they're confident they can get in time, but then they decide on timing. They know that the opening of parliament is usually this big ceremonial session where the king, his ministers, nobles, everyone basically comes together under one roof to open up Parliament.

[00:37:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:59] And [00:38:00] so this, they believe is gonna be the perfect time to strike in order to gain maximum impact for this attack problem is if the opening of Parliament is in just six months time now, they need to really hustle to get as much gunpowder as they possibly could and start stockpiling it.

[00:38:18] Problem is if the opening of Parliament is just six months away. They now need to hustle to get enough gunpowder. Immediately they end up running into shortage issues, which means they are increasingly taking more and [00:38:30] more risks with back alley kind of deals that could potentially blow their cover.

[00:38:34] Right? Mm-hmm. It ends up a few people knowing what they're planning, right?

[00:38:39] So that's again, another big issue in the story is that there's a lot of people involved.

[00:38:44] So they've got this shortage issue they need 36 barrels, but then by some ridiculous stroke of luck, the plague sweeps through the city and the parliament's opening is postponed until the following year.

[00:38:55] Suddenly they have loads of months of breathing room to really take a step [00:39:00] back, really be a bit more cautious about getting the gunpowder and start planning this thing through properly,

[00:39:05] mm-hmm. Rather than, or squeezing it in with the next six months.

[00:39:07] Adam Cox: This is quite a long time. A long time of plotting then,

[00:39:10] well, six months. I don't think that's very long. No, maybe not. They've gotta smuggle in these barrels, right?

[00:39:14] Exactly.

[00:39:15] Kyle Risi: That's the biggest problem, right? this delay basically solves the biggest logistical nightmare that they haven't really quite worked out yet. And that is how the hell are they gonna get all this gun powder under the House of Lords without anyone noticing.

[00:39:27] Adam Cox: is it not just gonna be like a delivery?

[00:39:29] They're like, [00:39:30] Hey, someone, Amazon, Amazon delivery.

[00:39:32] Kyle Risi: No. Adam. Basically, they're gonna dig a tunnel.

[00:39:35] Oh

[00:39:35] they start tunneling from the rented house towards the sellers under the House of Lords, which none of them have any experience in mining whatsoever.

[00:39:44] Adam Cox: How do you do that without, like, drawing attention to anyone above?

[00:39:49] Yeah. And just like, what kind of tools are you using? They're not using spoons, surely. Well, they've got shovels and stuff. Yeah.

[00:39:54] But, wow, that's impressive. And so how, how close is the house to the parliament?

[00:39:59] Kyle Risi: So when [00:40:00] I was looking at the map, I dunno if we know the exact house, but there's this big kinda radius, it looks like they've got to go the equivalent of crossing the river.

[00:40:07] Adam Cox: Right. So this isn't like just a little road that they're trying to dig under. That is quite a substantial amount. I dunno how wide the Thames is, but it's, it's quite, quite wide. I'd say a hundred meters.

[00:40:16] Kyle Risi: No, a hundred meters. It's 270 meters.

[00:40:20] Adam Cox: 200 is quite specific. Maybe

[00:40:23] Kyle Risi: I just looked it up. But yeah, so it's quite a substantial amount to be digging a tunnel. Exactly. So you can fit grow men through and all their [00:40:30] powder

[00:40:30] Adam Cox: and shovels and shovels. I dunno, I don't think I could do it.

[00:40:33] Kyle Risi: Well, you're not doing it,

[00:40:34] Adam Cox: which is good.

[00:40:35] Kyle Risi: So they start tunneling from this rented house towards the sellers under the House of Lords. Like I said, none of them have any money experience, but they do their best.

[00:40:42] Mostly digging at night discreetly, dumping the extracted rubble. It is filthy, exhausting work. They pretty much get the job finished. But it is largely contested because historians can't really find where that tunnel was. I mean, it could be they'd just collapse inwards, but whatever.

[00:40:56] But a lot of people say they finished pretty much digging the tunnel.

[00:40:59] Adam Cox: That's [00:41:00] interesting because how do you stop it from like caving in back then and how deep exactly is it for that not to cave in?

[00:41:06] Kyle Risi: And you're probably, you're using it for a single purpose, right? Mm-hmm. So you just want to be able to get the gunpowder under there and be able to get access to it.

[00:41:13] You're probably not reinforcing. It's because what's the point in that it's not something you're gonna be using every day. Yeah, it's for a single purpose. It's quite dangerous, actually. Very dangerous.

[00:41:22] But then they get news that all the digging that they had just done. It was all completely unnecessary because Thomas Percy [00:41:30] had managed to rent a vault directly beneath the House of Lords. So they're all like, for fuck's sake.

[00:41:35] Adam Cox: Yeah. Someone should have, Thomas probably should have done his research beforehand.

[00:41:39] Kyle Risi: I think what he done is while they were trying to work out how they were gonna get the gunpowder under there, they probably did approach the house of laws to see if they could rent a vault and maybe there's a waiting list.

[00:41:49] And then at the last minute, one opened up. One opened up, basically.

[00:41:53] Adam Cox: Okay, so they've got a, which I didn't realize one, that you could hire out a vault. I'm guessing you can't do that now, right?

[00:41:58] Kyle Risi: I think it's because of his [00:42:00] connections to the Earl of Northland.

[00:42:01] Adam Cox: So, okay. Yeah, fine. And they're gonna be like, so what do you wanna put in this vault?

[00:42:05] And he's kinda all my goods. Some chairs. Yeah, a table storage essentially.

[00:42:08] Kyle Risi: That's exactly it.

[00:42:09] So they abandoned the tunnel, they haul all the stockpiled gun powder back out and disguised as Thomas Percy's servant Guy Fork starts moving the barrels off gun powder, one by one into this lease vault, and he basically hides them behind a massive stack of firewood.

[00:42:25] So to the casual observer, the vault just looks like a normal storage room. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:29] [00:42:30] Meanwhile, out in the Midlands, Robert and some of the others, they start thinking about what their plan is going to be after they explode parliament. 'cause basically they know that once it does go up, it's going to drive the country into a total state of chaos.

[00:42:45] But up until that point, they hadn't even thought about what they needed to do. Once that happens, yeah.

[00:42:50] What's their alibi? Not even that. What's your next plan? Because everyone is going to be trying to claim power at that point. So they needed a strategy on how they could [00:43:00] essentially do that and then take control of the government.

[00:43:02] Adam Cox: I was gonna say like it could get worse.

[00:43:04] Kyle Risi: It could get a hell of a lot worse. So they needed a plan, basically.

[00:43:07] So basically they were going to first of all, organize an uprising to seize control of the capitol. Once Parliament explodes for leverage, they would also kidnap the King's daughter, princess Elizabeth, just before the explosion, and then install her as a puppet under the regency of the Earl of Northumberland, which would then given total control of the country. That was their plan.

[00:43:28] They recruit a bunch of wealthy [00:43:30] Catholic supporters. So more and more people are now brought into the fold. In particular. They bring in Ambrose, Rockwood, and Francis Reham, who is basically Robert's cousin, and they begin stockpiling weapons for this uprising.

[00:43:43] So with so many people involved, there is of course a risk that someone was going to start talking, which is exactly what happens. Ambrose and Francis, they both end up visiting a Jesuit priest for confession.

[00:43:57] And the priest is a man called Father [00:44:00] Henry Garnet. And they both tell Father Garnet literally everything.

[00:44:06] Adam Cox: What were they expecting? They expect 'cause he's a man of faith that he won't tattletale.

[00:44:10] Kyle Risi: Exactly. That's exactly it. He of course, is horrified, but of course he's bound by his seal of confession, so he can't exactly go to the authorities.

[00:44:18] So instead he tries to plead with them. He even begs them to not do this. When that doesn't work, he ends up going directly to Robert himself. But Robert ends up completely refusing him. There was just [00:44:30] now too much at stake for them to give up now, plus they were just 30 days out from initiating their plan at this point. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:37] But even still, this is all really, really risky because you've now got a very concerned priest who Yes. Is bound by his oath, but he could still easily find another way to alert the king. Do you know what I mean? So I don't understand why they're not freaking out more than they are.

[00:44:52] Adam Cox: Yeah. Could he not do like an anonymous letter?

[00:44:54] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Then 10 days before the 5th of November. They get confirmation that Parliament [00:45:00] would indeed be reopening. I didn't mention this before, but after the plague breakout, there'd been another two delays in the opening of Parliament, but now the 5th of November was the day, and every important person in the realm would be there, including the king, his close relatives, members of his privy council, judges, Protestant, Nobles, bishops, literally everyone.

[00:45:21] If this plot works at him, the country's entire power structure would literally go up in smoke.

[00:45:28] Adam Cox: That would've been chaos if [00:45:30] that had happened. Like what would've happened. Is it a bit like the French Revolution with that kind of uprising?

[00:45:35] Kyle Risi: You wouldn't even need a battle, right? Like the king is dead and all the nobles are dead in one go. It's a crazy plan. Yeah, it's ambitious.

[00:45:42] So a couple days after Parliament is confirmed to be opening Francis Ths, one of the men who obviously blab to Father Garnet. He sends an anonymous letter to his brother-in-law, Lord Monte Eagle, which is a great name, warning him basically not to attend the opening of Parliament on the 5th of [00:46:00] November.

[00:46:00] Monte Eagle is obviously really unnerved by this letter A, he has no idea that it was sent from his brother-in-law. Mm-hmm. So he ends up showing the letter to the King's chief Minister after this.

[00:46:12] The rumor that a letter had been received makes his way back to Robert and he is absolutely furious. He knows exactly who sent it because Lord Monte Eagle is the only person to receive this letter.

[00:46:25] And his connection to Francis as his brother-in-law makes it very obvious [00:46:30] that he was sending him a warning. Yeah.

[00:46:31] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:46:32] Kyle Risi: Francis of course denies this, but then he begs Robert to just abandon the plan altogether. But all this does is confirm to Robert that he was indeed the one who had sent the letter.

[00:46:41] Right?

[00:46:41] Adam Cox: Yeah, totally. But then they still go ahead with it then. Really? Yes. It doesn't deter them.

[00:46:45] Kyle Risi: It does not. Well, basically the thing that gives them the reassurance is that in a panic, Robert sends Guy Fawkes racing back to the vault to check to see if the gunpowder was still there. Everything is exactly as he left it. Nothing has been touched.

[00:46:58] Whatever the [00:47:00] anonymous letter said, it clearly hadn't given away the exact details of the plot. And so this is a massive relief for them as like a conspiracy.

[00:47:08] Adam Cox: Sure. But surely everyone there is now gonna be on high alert.

[00:47:12] Kyle Risi: Yes, exactly. So eventually the letter reaches the king on the 1st of November.

[00:47:18] He reads it. He focuses on one specific line, which reads. Thy shall receive a terrible blow of this parliament, and yet thy shall not know who [00:47:30] hurts them. So that phrase triggers something in the king that nobody else seems to pick up on, and he immediately suspects a terrible blow might mean an explosion.

[00:47:39] Adam Cox: I mean, two people have attempted to take him out already. Mm-hmm. So he's probably quite intuitive of this kind of stuff now.

[00:47:45] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I mean, it could be a massive blow job. Who knows? A terrible blow will take you out.

[00:47:50] Adam Cox: I don't think it is.

[00:47:52] Kyle Risi: So he orders a discreet and thorough search of all the buildings around Parliament, eventually the Privy Council eventually get rounds to search in the vaults, [00:48:00] like on the 4th of November. So three days later in one of them, they find. A suspiciously large stack of firewood guarded by a man who introduces himself as John Johnson.

[00:48:12] He explains that, of course, the firewood belongs to his master. Who is Thomas Percy? Who they should know is the king's bodyguard. And so in the end, they end up nodding politely. They say basically, right. Carry on. And then they basically leave.

[00:48:26] Adam Cox: Thank you, Mr. John Johnson.

[00:48:27] Kyle Risi: Thank you, Mr. John Johnson. In the [00:48:30] end, they find nothing. Like I said, this is now the 4th of November, so just before midnight, they report back to the king to tell them that they found nothing. But he's not satisfied with this. The line in that letter just keeps gnawing at him. And so he orders them to do another thorough search of the entire parliament.

[00:48:47] This time they retrace their steps backwards. They eventually get to the vault very early on in the search. And this time they find John Johnson there. But he's carrying a bunch of fuses and matches.

[00:48:59] Adam Cox: I [00:49:00] mean, that's pretty suspicious.

[00:49:01] Kyle Risi: Looks very suspicious. So they immediately arrest him on the spot. They pull aside the firewood, and they find all 36 barrels of gunpowder stacked neatly behind it.

[00:49:12] Wow.

[00:49:12] They bring guy Fawkes before the king, and he still insists at that moment in time that he has no idea what you're talking about.

[00:49:19] He's like, my name is John Johnson. Um, I was asked to guard the fire, would buy my master. I know nothing about any kind of gunpowder.

[00:49:26] James is not satisfied with this. He orders that he be interrogated, he says [00:49:30] to the guards, the gentler torments are to be used first unto him. And so by degrees proceeding to the worst and so godspeed your good work. Yeah,

[00:49:39] basically start easy if you still won't talk, crank out the pair of anguish Wow.

[00:49:46] Adam Cox: Yeah, I mean, I'm still surprised that Guy Fawkes or John Johnson thought he would get away with it because it's like, why would you have a load of gunpowder?

[00:49:53] How do you think you could get away with this, Adam?

[00:49:54] Kyle Risi: It's the day before they've gotten away with it up to this point. True.

[00:49:58] Adam Cox: And I, how are they [00:50:00] ever gonna like blow it up? Like how, I guess they would set the fuse at a safe distance. Mm-hmm. But how do they make sure that it blows up? I dunno. Because I feel like you need to be quite far away when you've got 36 barrels of

[00:50:10] Kyle Risi: Well, I mean, they have recruited an expert. Just because he is an expert from the 16 hundreds doesn't mean that he doesn't know what he's doing. Well, he didn't succeed, did he? But why did he not succeed? It's because someone blabbed. True.

[00:50:22] Adam Cox: And that's, that's, someone sends a letter that's quite crazy to think that they probably would've been able to Get this job done. What would the world have been like? No Houses of [00:50:30] Parliament. No. Big Ben.

[00:50:31] Kyle Risi: Yeah. No Big Ben. I guess we probably should explain what the Houses of Parliaments are, because at the time that this happened, the Houses of Parliament that we recognized today didn't exist.

[00:50:40] Oh. Back then in six, in oh four, it was just basically a series of medieval houses in this weird ramshackled complex. Mm-hmm. On the same site that the current houses of parliaments are today.

[00:50:52] So when you see. As an international listener, the Houses of Parliament, you probably recognize it more by Big Ben, basically.

[00:50:59] Mm-hmm. But the [00:51:00] Houses of Parliaments is the building that is attached to Big Ben.

[00:51:03] Adam Cox: But even back then, 'cause the Houses of Parliament are quite grand. Mm-hmm Now, but back then they wouldn't have been.

[00:51:08] Kyle Risi: No, it wouldn't have been. In fact, the House of Parliaments, as we know it today, was built in 1829.

[00:51:12] So it's like Victorian times But also Big Ben isn't the name of that tower. Big Ben is the name of the bell inside that tower. Do you know the name of the actual tower itself?

[00:51:24] Adam Cox: Yes.

[00:51:24] The tower that belongs to the Parliament that houses Big Ben.

[00:51:29] Kyle Risi: No, [00:51:30] it's called the Elizabeth Tower.

[00:51:31] Adam Cox: I knew that.

[00:51:31] Kyle Risi: So when our internationalists is, when we talk about, houses of Parliament, it is basically.

[00:51:36] Adam Cox: It's not what you see now big then. Yeah. It's not what you see now, but yeah. Interesting. Okay. 'cause I was trying to, it's quite a big building, but maybe back then it wouldn't have been that big.

[00:51:43] So that kind of makes a bit more sense now,

[00:51:45] Kyle Risi: but it was still essentially the same purpose mm-hmm. As what it serves today, right?

[00:51:49] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:51:50] Kyle Risi: So by this point, word of guys arrest reaches Thomas Percy and Thomas Winter, as well as Ambrose, Rockwood, all of them, bolt North. Their thinking was that even [00:52:00] without the explosion, maybe they could still spark, a rebellion and march on London.

[00:52:04] But without the chaos of the explosion, a rebellion at this point just feels like it's suicide. So many of the men just completely reviews.

[00:52:10] Adam Cox: I was gonna say, they're just gonna l it.

[00:52:12] Kyle Risi: Yeah. They're just like, well, they're gonna kill us, aren't they? Next, they decide to pivot and initiate their plan to kidnap Princess Elizabeth. But at this point, the monarchy is in full lockdown. All the royal heirs are locked away in their palaces across London, and so at this moment, everything is just falling apart.

[00:52:27] Robert then makes one final attempt to try and [00:52:30] rally up a rebellion. He's known to be incredibly persuasive. Everyone kind of gathers around in urgency. It's in the pouring reign. He makes his case. They're all kind of sort of convinced they start to collect up what's left of all their munitions, including the remaining gunpowder that isn't inside the vaults, which thanks to the rain is now. Absolutely soaking wet and completely useless.

[00:52:53] Ah, so they decide that before they can move, they need to dry it out, which they [00:53:00] do by placing near a series of fires. And so in a major lapse of judgment, the entire thing explodes.

[00:53:08] No way.

[00:53:09] Yep. One of them is instantly blinded. The blast ends up drawing attention to where they are.

[00:53:15] And within minutes, the farmhouse is completely surrounded by 200 men. They refuse to surrender. And so this result in a shootout, Robert, Thomas, Percy, John Wright, they're all killed on the spot.

[00:53:27] Any survivors, they're captured, they're [00:53:30] all taken to the Tower of London for interrogation. And honestly, after seeing what we saw at the London Dungeons with the pair of anguish and that contraption they used to pull out your tongue, I think at this moment in time, probably death would be the better option.

[00:53:43] Yeah. Because they're going to be executed, aren't they?

[00:53:46] Adam Cox: Yeah. Being shot at this explosion or the fire, that would've been a lot better.

[00:53:50] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:53:50] Adam Cox: So they still got their explosion to some degree.

[00:53:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but not in the, not in the house of the barn. Guy Fawkes though, Adam, he is now been in [00:54:00] segregated for four days. He holds out amazingly because he lasts four days without saying a single word, but on the 9th of November, he ends up giving a full confession, detailing the entire plot.

[00:54:11] Historians say that when they compared his signature in his confession to earlier examples of his handwriting, like his signature's barely legible, and that's because he could barely even hold a quill.

[00:54:24] Ooh. I've got an image of what his signature looked like compared to his usual signature. Okay. Just to give you [00:54:30] a flavor of how badly he was essentially tortured,

[00:54:33] Adam Cox: it's like they got a three-year-old to do it. Yeah. So what was his state of his hands then? Yeah.

[00:54:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Probably had his fingernails ripped out.

[00:54:42] Who knows?

[00:54:43] Adam Cox: Wow.

[00:54:44] Kyle Risi: So he's in a bad way, basically? Mm-hmm. So I don't really blame him. He lasted four days of torture with a pair of anguish. I wonder how many times he got up his bum.

[00:54:53] Adam Cox: Don't know. Don't know.

[00:54:55] Kyle Risi: Thomas win, he's the next one to confess. He confirms everything that Guy [00:55:00] Fawkes had said. Eight conspirators. Were still alive at that moment in time or were arrested if they haven't already been.

[00:55:07] Adam Cox: Do any of them say that they were forced into it?

[00:55:09] Kyle Risi: I don't know. Actually. It's a good question. It would be a good defense, but then it doesn't matter. You still did it. This is Medieval bloody London. You're probably still gonna get executed regardless.

[00:55:19] Adam Cox: Yeah, but they were just trying to fit in.

[00:55:23] Kyle Risi: Doesn't matter. You wanna fit in, you're still gonna die. They all end up being tried at Westminster Hall. The very building that they try [00:55:30] to blow up. At this point, the trial is just a formality.

[00:55:33] Like they've already decided that they're all guilty and so when they're sentenced, they're all sentenced to be hung, drawn and courted for high treason.

[00:55:43] Do you even know what that means?

[00:55:45] Adam Cox: Do you know what? I haven't told this and I'm trying to remember. So hung obviously being hung out on a to dry to dry, um, no.

[00:55:53] Obviously it's execution by hanging. And then courted is a punishment that they do to you. Ah, no. [00:56:00] That's where they trail you through the streets, right? Sure.

[00:56:01] Kyle Risi: Just

[00:56:02] Adam Cox: explain. Yes.

[00:56:03] Kyle Risi: Okay. So first you are hung until you are almost dead. Then you are basically cut down. You are title horse, usually by your legs, and then you are dragged through the streets to your execution site.

[00:56:15] There. You then have your genitals chopped off tossed into a fire while you watch. Mm-hmm. Wonder what they do with women don't know. Do you think they cut off their breasts? I I. Or do you think they surgically attach a penis only to then chop it off again?

[00:56:29] Adam Cox: I [00:56:30] have no idea. I can't imagine many women would be in this situation. Hey, I just, well, it's many your times, but anyway, so yeah. The, that's sexist. They're watching the, the Johnson in the fire.

[00:56:39] Kyle Risi: yes. Essentially, the John Johnson is watching his Johnson in the fire. Mm-hmm.

[00:56:43] Then while you're basically still alive, you are then dis bound. Your intestines are removed again. They are thrown into the fire and you have to watch them burn and then you probably die. Sometimes they might take out your heart during the process, but. The point is when you die, or sometimes when you are even still [00:57:00] alive, you are then courted.

[00:57:02] This can sometimes happen with four horses that literally pull you apart in four different directions, ripping your limbs off. If you're lucky, you'll have them chopped off with an ax, and then your body parts are then displayed publicly as a warning to anyone else who might try and do the same thing.

[00:57:18] Or you are just left for the birds to peck at.

[00:57:21] Adam Cox: This is what I said when I was trying to describe it exactly. That

[00:57:24] Kyle Risi: it's horrible.

[00:57:25] Adam Cox: It feels like it is the worst kind of punishment way to go, right? Mm-hmm. It was [00:57:30] proper torture. Brutal. Yeah. Anything like a quick, death such as the guillotine or being hung to die, then yeah, that's a, that's a, yeah. Painless death.

[00:57:38] Kyle Risi: Well, they say especially during the French Revolution that the guillotine was A more moral execution method because it was quick and swift, Yeah. It was an execution method developed for the monarchy because it provided you with the dignity and the respect.

[00:57:52] Adam Cox: Sometimes like with an ax, it wasn't always like sharp, was it? So you just tip the axman to make sure that it was sharp? I think it was.

[00:57:59] Kyle Risi: Oh, I [00:58:00] see. Or make it quick.

[00:58:01] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:01] Kyle Risi: Guy Fox amazingly does not go through any of that.

[00:58:05] Why?

[00:58:06] While he has been led to the gallows to be hung, he either jumps or he slips, but in the process he breaks his neck and he dies instantly.

[00:58:16] No way.

[00:58:17] Adam Cox: Yeah. I mean, he was tortured, but he kind of gets away with this bit.

[00:58:20] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:58:21] Honestly, it's the most dignified ending any of them could have hoped for in that moment in time and Guy Fawkes Got it.

[00:58:28] Damn.

[00:58:29] After the [00:58:30] executions. Things only get worse for Catholics across England, Scotland and Ireland. New laws start stripping Catholics of all of their rights.

[00:58:37] They are completely prohibited from practicing law or serving in the army. They completely lose the right to vote, and as a result, they are completely vilified. A bit like how the Jews were vilified in many parts of Europe, mm-hmm. Catholics get the same thing as horrible. They also end up becoming scapegoats for all sorts of things, including being blamed for the great fire of London.

[00:58:59] [00:59:00] Wow. Believe it or not, it's not until more than 200 years later, that Catholics regained the right to vote again.

[00:59:05] Adam Cox: Really? Yeah.

[00:59:07] Kyle Risi: That is wild. Why? Yeah. A few months after the plot Parliament passes the observance of the 5th of November act, which officially establishes the day as our national Day of Thanksgiving.

[00:59:20] Adam Cox: Thanksgiving.

[00:59:21] Kyle Risi: Yeah. That is what Guy Fox actually is.

[00:59:24] Adam Cox: So we're giving thanks that we didn't, or they didn't go through with it. Yeah. And therefore we're [00:59:30] celebrating and obvi and

[00:59:30] Kyle Risi: yeah, we're giving thanks for the king survival and the failure of basically this conspiracy

[00:59:35] Adam Cox: and the craziness that happened afterwards. Mm-hmm. That wasn't really resolved until a hundred years ago. Yeah.

[00:59:40] Kyle Risi: So really the UK does technically have its own Thanksgiving. Instead of celebrating with Martin, Mr. Jan, we celebrate with lighting, bonfires, and setting off fireworks.

[00:59:50] Adam Cox: So we put the guy mm-hmm. On the fire because. Killing guy Fawkes.

[00:59:54] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I mean, I don't really get how all that works.

[00:59:56] Well, I think it's more of the spectacle of it. Yeah.

[00:59:58] Adam Cox: I'm guessing like there would've been a big [01:00:00] fire and so therefore with

[01:00:01] Kyle Risi: Yeah, and back in the medieval time, they love, they love like an execution. So I kind of guess it's just feeding into that.

[01:00:06] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's kind of remembering, I guess whilst giving thanks. I guess it's also like a stark reminder. You try and blow up this parliament, this is what happens.

[01:00:14] Kyle Risi: But the funny thing is, Adam, that this isn't called Robert Gatsby night because remember he was the mastermind, behind all of this, but it's Guy Fawkes who gets all the fame. And I guess maybe it makes sense logically because he was the one who was caught red-handed in the vault.

[01:00:28] Mm-hmm. But [01:00:30] really it's Robert Gatsby who's responsible for all of

[01:00:32] Adam Cox: this. That is interesting, isn't it? And

[01:00:34] Kyle Risi: yet none of us know his name.

[01:00:35] Adam Cox: No. And I will probably forget after today. No, you won't. I'll make sure of it.

[01:00:40] and so we've been doing this, we've been celebrating this ever since. 1605. Wow. That is a such a long tradition.

[01:00:46] And then the fireworks element, I was having a quick look just to make sure, because I was interested. Apparently we have been doing fireworks ever since then, pretty much.

[01:00:54] Kyle Risi: Oh, have we? Amazing. I had no idea. I thought it was very much a modern invention, but then again, they're using gunpowder [01:01:00] to blow it up, and that is the main ingredient.

[01:01:01] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's probably not quite the fireworks that we see today. Mm-hmm. But yes, they say fireworks became part of the tradition soon after because they symbolized the explosives that were never detonated.

[01:01:12] And over time, the day evolved from an anti-Catholic celebration into a more general autumn festivity marked by bonfires, fireworks and burning guy effigies.

[01:01:22] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Do you know what, I get it. It's great that it's evolved into that, but if something is as roots in something that is as oppressive and marginalizes a group [01:01:30] of people, it still has those undertones it doesn't matter if it's evolved over time to something different.

[01:01:34] Mm-hmm. It still resulted from that oppression.

[01:01:37] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's quite, quite still feels very medieval for us to keep doing that.

[01:01:41] Kyle Risi: It is such a bizarre holiday,

[01:01:43] Adam Cox: but hey, pretty fireworks.

[01:01:44] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And so every year we like bonfires, we

[01:01:48] Adam Cox: toss an effigy of a man into the flames and

[01:01:50] Kyle Risi: we literally

[01:01:51] Adam Cox: watch him burn like a pack of demonic witches.

[01:01:54] Kyle Risi: And I love it because it's very, you almost fall into a trance watching it, right? Mm-hmm. It is bizarre [01:02:00] when you think about it, when you break it down like that.

[01:02:02] Adam Cox: Next time we go to a bonfire, I feel like we should take the other men, not just guy.

[01:02:06] We'll bring one more off.

[01:02:07] Kyle Risi: This is Thomas. This is Jack. This is, Robert Gatsby. Yeah. Just chuck 'em all on the fire. We will do, yeah. People, I don't think people will even care who's been thrown in as long as someone's been thrown in. This is the UK for God's sake. But Adam, that is the story of Guy Fox and the great gunpowder plot of 1605.

[01:02:27] Adam Cox: I feel like I must have learned this in school. [01:02:30] I must have done, but I don't think I really remembered the fact that it was down to religion. And also that the other people involved We don't really talk about them.

[01:02:37] Kyle Risi: No.

[01:02:38] Adam Cox: Um, so yeah. And that guy

[01:02:39] Kyle Risi: fogs wasn't the main guy

[01:02:40] Adam Cox: and they actually almost got away with it. Yeah. If it wasn't for those pesky kids,

[01:02:43] Kyle Risi: so next time someone says, remember, remember the 5th of November, other than Adam, because he already knows this, you can absolutely finish the rhyme. Do you remember what it is? The full one Say, say it with some gusto.

[01:02:54] Remember remember the 5th of November, gunpowder. Treason and plot. Something [01:03:00] and something and something and something something and something. And not

[01:03:04] just to polish that

[01:03:05] off. I know of no reason why gunpowder, treason should ever be forgot.

[01:03:09] That's what I said. I know. Wonderful. But it is. Once I think how close they came, as you just said, like the whole world could have changed if, who's responsible for this? Break it down. Is it Francis Reham who sent the letter? If he hadn't, would they

[01:03:24] Adam Cox: have go away with

[01:03:25] Kyle Risi: it? Yeah, I think so. Or is it, again, going back to Thres [01:03:30] and Ambrose, if they hadn't done the confession would that have, like, would that been a more short sign? Do, you think that priest would've potentially. Alerted someone. I don't know.

[01:03:39] Adam Cox: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Basically they got a blaber they shouldn't, they should have kept, maybe they shouldn't just have bothered about the uprising and like just rallied some people afterwards because people would,

[01:03:50] Kyle Risi: I think they needed a plan 'cause otherwise someone else would be potentially more organized to rally up the troops and then go in and march on London and then take power.

[01:03:59] [01:04:00] They wanted to make sure that they would be able to get the power in order to a probably reinstill Catholicism or just stop the tyranny against the Catholics.

[01:04:09] Adam Cox: What they should have done was when they were auditioning these people is just say. How do you feel about killing?

[01:04:14] Kyle Risi: I don't think you can audition.

[01:04:15] Adam Cox: Yeah. But if someone goes like, ah, I'd rather not kill then out straight away. Okay, next.

[01:04:20] Kyle Risi: But then that person's gonna go and dob on you potentially.

[01:04:23] Adam Cox: But you could say you're planning a surprise party and then you just go like, it's just, just a few questions a little bit out there just to get your personality.

[01:04:29] [01:04:30] Sure.

[01:04:30] This is going nowhere. Let's run the outro. Okay. You

[01:04:34] And that brings us to the end of another fascinating foray into the compendium and assembly, our fascinating things. We hope you enjoy the ride as much as we did.

[01:04:42] And if today's episode sparks your curiosity, then please do us a favor and follow us on your favorite podcast app. It truly makes a world of difference and helps more people like you discover the show.

[01:04:52] Kyle Risi: And for our dedicated freaks out there. Don't forget, the next week's episode is already waiting for you on our Patreon, and it is of course completely free to [01:05:00] access.

[01:05:00] Adam Cox: And if you want even more than join our certified freaks tier to unlock the entire archive, delve into exclusive content and get a sneak peek at what's coming next. We'd love for you to be part of our growing community.

[01:05:11] Kyle Risi: We drop new episodes every Tuesday and until then, remember, even when a spark fails to ignite revolution, its ember can still burn for centuries.

[01:05:20] We'll see you next time.

[01:05:21] Adam Cox: See ya. [01:05:30]