JT Leroy’s Story: Crafting Fiction from Fiction

[EPISODE 36] JT Leroy’s Story: Crafting Fiction from Fiction

Kyle Risi: So. Adam. Uh huh. Not only was JT Leroy's life story not real. What? But JT Leroy himself didn't even exist. JT Leroy had been created by Speedy, who had started calling suicide hotlines which resulted in this whole thing snowballing until this character that she had made up on the fly had become the biggest literary Geniuses of our age and was getting pap with celebrities like Courtney Love and Madonna. And I'm going to tell you exactly how all that happened.

Adam Cox: Hang on, so What? What? 

Kyle Risi: I don't 

Adam Cox: get it. Hang on. What? 

Kyle Risi: Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of tales where the only thing more intricate than the stories we tell is the history behind the storytellers themselves.

Kyle Risi: Oh, 

Adam Cox: okay. so it sounds like we've got maybe an author or something like that's got a very, uh, colourful past.

Kyle Risi: Well, you would be correct, Adam. You're very intuitive. I love having you as a co host. Well, that's good. Otherwise, it'd be a problem. Yeah, 

Adam Cox: 30 episodes in and you're like, hmm, this isn't working out. 

Kyle Risi: But yes, you're right. I'm so excited about today's story because in today's episode of the compendium, I'm going to be telling you about the life and the times of someone who many consider to be one of the greatest literary sensations of modern times. I'm talking about the infamous JT Leroy. A story about a previously unknown author who seemingly appeared out of nowhere taking the world by storm. And what makes JT DeRoy's story so incredible wasn't just his literary works, but also his unbelievably tragic backstory which ended up catapulting him into a height of fame that hadn't been seen by an author like this in decades. Attracting an almost cult like following amongst people desperate to connect with him and his story. Including dozens of A list celebrities like courtney Love, Wyanna Ryder, and even Madonna. 

Adam Cox: I literally can't picture who this person is or what they've done. I thought you might have been speaking about Roald Dahl.

Kyle Risi: I don't think that really fits kind of the niche of this podcast.

Adam Cox: No, but he, 

Adam Cox: was a spy. Maybe a future podcast episode, but for now, J. T. Leroy. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, sorry, unfortunately it's not Roald Dahl, but equally as fascinating is the story of J.

Kyle Risi: T. Leroy. Now, I guess the reason why we probably haven't really heard of it is because we were really young teenagers. not even teenagers at that point when these books came out.

Kyle Risi: But if you've ever heard of JT Leroy, Then you'll know that it's a story that forces us to question the boundary of where the ethical implications of Fiction Ends and Reality Begins, and I know that sounds cryptic, but that perfectly sums up what this episode is about.

Kyle Risi: So before we kick off, should we get on with introductions? 

Adam Cox: Let's do it.

Kyle Risi: So for those of you tuning in for the very first time, I'm your host, Kyle Risi. 

Adam Cox: And I'm your cohost, Adam Cox. 

Kyle Risi: You're listening to The Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. We are a weekly variety podcast where I, Kyle Risi, tell Adam Cox all about a topic that I think he'll find both fascinating. and intriguing. From groundbreaking events to unforgettable people. We do this all in a simple one hour ish episode, giving you just enough information to stand your ground at a social gathering. 

Kyle Risi: And with that said, I hear a jingle fading in over the background. It's time for all the latest things.

Kyle Risi: This is a segment of our show where we catch up on all the week's happenings and share breaking news, weird facts or stories from the past week. 

Kyle Risi: So Adam, what have you got for us today?

Adam Cox: So today, uh, my latest bit of news is about the loneliest sheep in Britain. 

Kyle Risi: I don't know if you've heard about this. Is it Sean? Is it Sean the sheep? No, 

Adam Cox: she's been, uh, given the name Fiona, which I think is a nice name for a sheep. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, I have no opinion on that. Oh, I thought it was nice. I mean, it's not like it's, I don't know, Barbara. I see what you did there. But yeah, Fiona, fine. Yeah, 

Adam Cox: now that you've said that, I wish it was Barbara. So 

Kyle Risi: why is she the loneliest sheep in the world? 

Adam Cox: So, um, a couple of years ago, um, a lady named Gillian, was out in Scotland, in the Highlands, and she was kayaking, she saw a sort of a relatively young sheep that was stranded sort of at the bottom of a cliff on the beach, side.

Adam Cox: And I think she, she noticed the sheep, didn't think much of it. She just thought, Oh, there's a sheep there. Yeah. two years later, she goes back and she's kayaking in the very same spot. And that sheep is still there. 

Kyle Risi: How does she know it's that sheep though? How does she know it's the same sheep? 

Adam Cox: the sheep had been stranded for two years in the same spot. It's coat had become like really big and heavy and what she could work out was that she couldn't, she couldn't make her way back up the cliff. Right. I see. And so these are like herd animals, aren't they? So therefore this is, this sheep has been on its own for two years all by itself.

Adam Cox: So Gillian called around a load of agencies to try and find out what she could do to rescue the sheep. And apparently the, this particular location was really difficult to rescue the sheep, hence why she hadn't been rescued up until this point. 

Kyle Risi: Oh, so people, hang on, do people know that she was there?

Kyle Risi: I think they did. And she doesn't give a shit. I think so.

Adam Cox: But then this extra attention in the news and everything. 

Kyle Risi: Like spurred them on to kind of go and 

Adam Cox: rescue her. Yeah, there was a petition, I think, as well. And so This group of farmers, uh, all banded together and then using this machinery somehow kind of got themselves down the cliff and then winched the sheep up.

Adam Cox: Right, right, right, right, right. Because she'd been living in a cave, bless her. 

Kyle Risi: Oh, poor Fiona! But hang on, why did they need to get all this expensive equipment out? Why don't they just go down there sheerer and then she's free to go up?

Adam Cox: Well I don't think it's the fur that stopped her, it's maybe she aren't very good at like climbing up a very steep hill. No. And so managed to get her way down there or perhaps fell down there when she was just like a young, young little lamb. Oh, okay, I see. Um, so, So Fiona got rescued.

Adam Cox: Uh, and then, so that was all celebrated, but then apparently her location was kept top secret because these animal activists, I think, were criticizing the farmer that abandoned the sheep. And so they had to keep her location top secret to rehome her. But apparently she's now been given a home, and being reintroduced to other sheep because she hasn't seen them in so long.

Kyle Risi: Like she's unsocialised. Is she like the bully of the crowd? 

Adam Cox: I don't think so. She's just like the new kid. Okay. I see. 

Kyle Risi: and it'd be good if she was like, really had severe behavioral problems, like just shagging all the men and all the, cause she hadn't done that in two years and all the other sheep are gossiping about her.

Kyle Risi: It's yeah, like I really like her, but like, I'm concerned for our mental health, you know, and they're all gathered around talking about her. And then Fiona comes along and they go, Oh, hi Fiona. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she walks away. Yeah, she's such a bitch. 

Adam Cox: That's why she was ostracised in the first place.

Kyle Risi: Do you think, before being a slut? 

Adam Cox: but yeah, bless her. And I think her coat has now been sheared. And I think it's being sold to charity or something. Okay, well it's gonna 

Kyle Risi: fetch loads of money because of obviously her backstory, her provenance. I guess so, 

Adam Cox: but yeah, it's just, I thought it was quite sweet.

Adam Cox: But she's only three years old, so for two years of her life 

Kyle Risi: she was by herself. Oh wow, and when she was a baby? That is sad. Yeah, but she's got a home 

Adam Cox: now, so that's And 

Kyle Risi: she's making up for lost time. Yeah. All that sheep shagging. 

Adam Cox: We can only hope.

Kyle Risi: So Adam, I don't really have And all the latest things this week, but I do have a dilemma. A dilemma? A dilemma. Oh, it's an agony aren't it? Not quite. this week's been a bit of a rollercoaster because I'm anxious. I am literally on the verge of a panic attack because we are currently, as you know, embroiled in a game of hot potato with two of our very close friends. And right now, they have the potato. 

Kyle Risi: And I know this potato is coming back to us, but I just don't know when. So to bring you listeners up to speed, let me just rewind for a second to earlier this year in May. We threw a Eurovision party, which used to be a tradition of ours like back in the day before we moved into the suburbs.

Kyle Risi: Adam, had planned a bunch of games for everyone to play during the evening and you ask everyone to bring something from their homes that they absolutely despised. Bonus points if that something was something that belonged to the partner of the couples that we invited that they absolutely loved.

Kyle Risi: So just think what's that one thing in your house that belongs to your partner that you absolutely hate.

Adam Cox: And was the opportunity to get rid of that and form the booby prize in our competition. 

Kyle Risi: Exactly, yeah that's what they would win. And I happened... To lose, and won everyone's shit. 

Adam Cox: I know, we saw it as an opportunity to get rid of our stuff, and then we got more stuff.

Kyle Risi: The thing is though, you need to learn. This is the opportunity to rig the game, especially when we're the host. It's true. You missed a trick there, but by far the worst prize that was in this lot was this massive canvas print of The Kiss by Gustav Glimt. So, if you know what this painting is, then you know just how monstrous this thing would be hanging in your living room.

Kyle Risi: But for those of you who don't know, it's kind of like this gold, mosaic y print that's a little bit realistic, it's a little bit abstract y, but it's just awful and it's massive. So if you look it up, it's Gustav Klimt, The Kiss. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about. But we have this painting now.

Kyle Risi: And for four months, this thing... was just staring back at me in our living room as it sat in there, leaned up against the wall. Taunting you. Taunting me. 

Kyle Risi: So how long was that now? A month ago? A couple months ago. So after a couple beers, I grabbed the painting, I snuck over to Jess and Lawrence's house in the dead of night, and I just left it on the inside of the gate.

Kyle Risi: So in the morning, when they left for work, they would see it and they would just have their painting back. But the morning comes and we hear nothing. So 5pm rolls around it is possible at this point that they haven't left the house yet, right?

Kyle Risi: So I need some kind of confirmation of this. So I send them a little evil laugh gif, and you know that kind of the one with the raccoon where he kind of like, he's doing the Mr Burns hands and he's like kind of laughing kind of sinisterly. I send them that? But what I hadn't realized was they had already returned the painting back to us during the day at some point.

Kyle Risi: So by the time that I was leaving the studio, I didn't know this. So they interpreted my GIF as a signal that I'd actually returned it back to them. So Lawrence was then Just looking everywhere for this, this print, thinking that we'd returned it. And he texts us back saying I can't find it anywhere. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, whilst we'd got the painting back, it was still kind of funny that we, there's this paranoia at their side. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, so we egged him on, we told him that he needs to keep looking and occasionally sending him like these various gifts of the raccoon or the one of the Grinch, kind of like rolling out a big evil sinister smile on his face.

Kyle Risi: So, you know, we're just taunting them. So Lawrence a few weeks later, he sent you a birthday card. With the kiss. So he was taunting us, even though we still had the print. So five weeks had gone by. And we still have the painting, and I couldn't just lob it back over the fence.

Kyle Risi: It had to be something special. So, that's when we spoke to our mates, Joe and Flick. Their daughter attends the same school where Jess actually teaches. And Flick volunteers at the school every Friday, reading to the kids. So their daughter's teacher gets wind of the situation, and she's like, Ooh, I like this.

Kyle Risi: So she says if we bring the painting in, that she'll make sure that she hangs it in Jess's classroom. So the day before half term, Mrs. Plant gets the painting, she hangs it in Jess's classroom, ready for the last day of school. But for some reason, Jess doesn't make it to her classroom that day.

Kyle Risi: I don't know what happened, but it is now half term and we have to wait an entire week which is torture. Because, for all I knew she was just keeping it silent. Mm-Hmm.

Kyle Risi: We have to wait all week just enduring the painful Instagram stories of them enjoying half term with their kid, not knowing if they've seen the painting yet. They're taunting us again. I know, they were taunting us, but. Finally, Monday comes, 7. 30am, Jess walks into her classroom and boom, there it is, the kiss.

Kyle Risi: And she is confused, she's shocked, and she thinks we've broken into the school! And she has no idea what's happening. 

Kyle Risi: But regardless, they now have the painting. And my anxiety is just through the roof because I know, that Lawrence is cooking up something big to top off the school gate plan. Yeah, I'm trying to 

Adam Cox: think, I'm expecting to go to work and see it, but then I don't know. I don't think he'll come back with the same trick. It's going to be 

Kyle Risi: different, isn't it? It's going to be different. And I guess, I knew that when we dragged out the returning of the painting by like five weeks, because we had it for like five weeks, I knew that got to them.

Kyle Risi: So I know that they're just going to do the same to us, 

Adam Cox: it's going to be like a Christmas present or something, 

Kyle Risi: isn't it? But I guess they're going to try and get it into the house, right? Somehow. Somehow. It's got to be creative. We need security. 

Kyle Risi: I guess we need to start thinking about what our next move is. Like, how are we going to get it into their house? We need to think four steps ahead. So, I guess it's over to the listeners, right? Like, we need some ideas on what we need to do to get the painting back into their court.

Adam Cox: Yeah, give us some ideas to how to do it because we need to, we need to have the upper 

Kyle Risi: edge. So I, at least that's off my chest now. And that's all the latest things.

Kyle Risi: So Adam, Jeremiah Terminator Leroy. Terminator? 

Adam Cox: Yeah, that's his name. Terminator? Terminator. Hang on a minute. What? I'm already suspicious. 

Kyle Risi: Oh, come on. Who is Christian Terminator? With three words in. That's his name. Okay. All right. Carry on. Is commonly referred to as JT Deedroy, who by the time the story starts is 20 years old and he is an emerging writer.

Kyle Risi: Now, he had already published two semi autobiography works that achieved by this point international acclaim. And although his works were categorized as fiction, it was widely believed that JT's incredible books were based on his own life. And a life that by all accounts was absolutely tragic.

Kyle Risi: So you see, JT's mother, Sarah, had given birth to when she was just 15 years old. Now JT's mother was working as a truck stop prostitute at the time. And after years of neglect, JT ends up being taken into foster care, but somehow his mother manages to kidnap him back. And when she does, she starts dressing JT up as a girl, so she can pimp him out to some of the men that she's been meeting at these truck stops.

Kyle Risi: What? I know, it's awful. 

Adam Cox: How did she steal him back without any repercussions, and then this is what she thought 

Kyle Risi: was a good idea to keep him? 

Kyle Risi: I guess she just was like, she kidnapped him back and then maybe relocated and they can't find him? Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible. So, JT is in... An awful situation and soon after this he gets hooked on drugs and he is regularly being assaulted, which on one occasion results in JT contracting HIV, which in the 1990s was pretty much like still a death sentence back then, right?

Kyle Risi: But by the time JT was just 15, Sarah had taken off and he was living on the street and he was completely alone. So he's really been through the ringer at this point. Awful, awful situation. And he's 15 at this point. And his mum's abandoned him. Yeah, she's just taken off.

Kyle Risi: Jeez. So somehow JT ends up in San Francisco where he meets a musician called Asta and they end up sleeping together Eventually though Asta and JT break up and Asta starts dating a woman called Speedy who is a social worker from the UK Now think like 1980s kind of sex pistols. That's the kind of vibe that these two were kind of giving off They were kind of like the hipsters of their time, right? now somehow JT ends up moving in with Asta and Speedy now, despite one sleeping with Asta, they both become like his adoptive parents, in a way, to JT, which is really messed up. 

Adam Cox: So asta was going out with JT.

Adam Cox: Yeah, they break up. Yeah. Then he meets, Asta meets Speedy. Yeah. They end up then dating. Right. Then eventually JT moves in with Asta and Speedy, his ex boyfriend, but then they kind of become like His adoptive parents. That's very weird. It is odd, isn't it? They sound like cartoon characters. So, yes, they do.

Adam Cox: So, occasionally JT would run off, but he would always end up coming back. And Speedy and Asta always made it clear that JT always had a place to stay with them. 

Adam Cox: Now this dynamic is obviously quite difficult to get your head around but ultimately they both show him kind of this unconditional love and support despite everything that JT has been through.

Adam Cox: So Speedy convinces him one day to just reach out to this helpline which specializes in working with young kids who are wrestling with a host of different issues from mental health, To substance abuse and trauma. Initially reluctant JT does eventually pick up the phone and on the other end is a psychologist called Dr. Owens 

Adam Cox: and Owens is completely Blown away by JT's upbringing and at first certain things in his story aren't really quite adding up In particular, for a 17 year old it sounds like J T's voice hasn't even broken yet, and when he questions JT about this, JT reveals that he never actually went through puberty because his testicles had been mutilated by one of the men that his mother had pimped him out to what I know it's not the awful one of these truckers, one of these truckers that his mother had pinned them out to and. Like, assault was commonplace for him in his day to day life. 

Adam Cox: But what about, I don't know, no, and no charges were like taken up? 

Kyle Risi: no, what's, it's probably illegal to be a prostitute, so what's she gonna do? And also, she's pimping out her son, so she's not exactly gonna go to the police, is she?

Kyle Risi: And he's like, just a minor, he probably doesn't know how to call the police. That's horrendous. It is awful, it's so disturbing, and that's one of the things that captivates people about his story.

Kyle Risi: So after several phone therapy sessions, Dr. Owens proposes an idea to JT, and that is to write down parts of his story as a way to kind of help him navigate the complex emotions and trauma from his past. So JT decides to give this a go, and a week or so goes by, and he sends Dr. Owens some of the pages that he's written and he is absolutely awestruck by just how eloquently and emotionally JT is able to kind of express himself on paper. He's never seen anything like this before. And Dr. Owens tells JT that he thinks he might be a writer. So. So feeling inspired, JT starts cold calling a bunch of his literary idols.

Kyle Risi: And eventually he connects with a guy called Bruce Bendison, who at the time was like this huge acclaimed writer. So there's a documentary called the author, the story of JT Leroy, where Bruce just talks about his initial unease of talking to JT at first, like he mistakes him for a girl, just like Dr.

Kyle Risi: Owens did. But, but he is also really unsettled by just like how deeply interested JT is in his own work, which is known for like really intense and mature themes like sex and abuse. Which kind of makes him feel really uncomfortable discussing these things with. JT.

Kyle Risi: Okay. But of course, JT says like, like the reason why I connect with your work so deeply is because I've gone through like similar experiences. So they talk for a bit more and JT says that a friend of his gave him a fax machine and asks if he can like send him some of his writing. And Bruce is obviously first a little bit hesitant and he's just trying to be nice and he's just like, yeah, fine. Sure. Here, here's my fax number.

Kyle Risi: By the way, this fax machine that he uses to send these faxes, JT says that a friend gave it to him, which he keeps chained to his leg because he's afraid that someone would steal it. So hang on, who's keeping the fax machine chained to the... JT is keeping this fax machine chained to his leg because he's afraid that someone will steal the fax machine.

Kyle Risi: Why? I don't know. I don't know. I was like what? How? And for how 

Adam Cox: long? What, whilst he's waiting for someone to return his fax? 

Kyle Risi: So he says to send faxes, he apparently goes into a public bathroom which apparently has like a phone jack in there that he can hook the fax up to. 

Adam Cox: In the bathroom? I know, I know. So

Kyle Risi: But remember, like, a fax machine is huge as well, especially in the 

Adam Cox: 1990s. I've never seen a phone cable thing in a bathroom, ever. 

Kyle Risi: So I don't know if we're missing something here, but like, yeah. So, hang on, wait. Also bear in mind he's walking around San Francisco with a fax machine chained to his leg. I mean...

Kyle Risi: Anyway, that was a little side note. I don't know what's going on with that, but that's apparently on the record. So... Anyway, that 

Adam Cox: should be the cover up for this book. 

Kyle Risi: So, anyway, Bruce reads what JT has written and Bruce is like, oh my god, I cannot believe that a 17 year old has written this and flat out thinks that like JT is a genius.

Kyle Risi: Right? So Bruce is like, not only can he write, but his story is just so tragic. And the way that he conveys his thoughts is just so raw and powerful and Bruce is just intent on helping him like he recruits a bunch of other people, other authors who all just become invested in supporting JT, who seems to like also demand a lot of time from these people over the phone, like he'll call them all and they'll just be on the phone for hours and hours and hours, providing therapy, providing advice, being mentors, etc.

Kyle Risi: They're really invested. In this damaged kid. And how old is he at this point? He's around about 17 years old. Still 17, okay. Yeah. Eventually, Bruce gets an agent involved and they put in the motions to get JT's story, turn into a book because he's just such an incredible writer.

Kyle Risi: So in the year 2000, after working with Bruce and his agent and various other publishers, JT publishes his first book and it's called Sarah. And it's named after his mother. The story follows a young boy called Cherry Vanilla who has this desire to be just like his mother.

Kyle Risi: And obviously she's a truck stop prostitute working the lots in West Virginia. And the novel explores like various themes around identity, love, and kind of the search for belonging, which is so common nowadays, right? Which kind of like gives you an indication that this book is way beyond the ears. Like he was writing about kind of gender identity before it was even cool, right? Oh, yeah. 

Kyle Risi: So he's like the one of the very first people. Mm hmm. So when you're after releasing his first book, it's followed by his second book called The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things, which is a collection of linked stories from JT's life.

Kyle Risi: But overnight, Adam, these books just explode, and they are an instant hit. And by late 2001, they are both bestsellers, and his agents and publishers are like, JT, you need to show yourself.

Kyle Risi: Because, at this point, no one's... He's never seen JT before. They've only ever talked to him on the phone because JT is extremely withdrawn and damaged at this point. 

Kyle Risi: So Bruce has not even met him then?

Kyle Risi: No, they've only just talked on the phone. Okay, and facts. And remember, because he obviously lives... And by facts, yeah. But remember, because he lives

Kyle Risi: halfway across America, so true. And I guess, yeah, it's not easy for a 17 year old because I can't imagine he's got that much money to kind of travel around. No. And see these people. No, I guess not. No.

Kyle Risi: So his agents start tactfully trying to convince JT to emerge, and they tell him just how much his novels are celebrated and how deeply people are connecting with his works, across the world.

Kyle Risi: But JT tells him, no, because, I've got HIV, I've developed Kaposi's sarcoma, which is kind of like a form of cancer that causes these really horrible lesions all over his body and face. And he's like, I just don't really want to be seen in public. Oh, poor kid. It's awful. 

Kyle Risi: So they're just like, okay, fine, but in the meantime, like marketing for his novels just goes ahead without him and because the books are just so powerful People don't really mind that he is like not around It's just as long as like kind of they can just all come together and connect with other people over His stories and that just seemed to be like good enough at the time.

Adam Cox: I guess people I don't know It sounds like his story is obviously pretty unique But I imagine there's elements maybe you know dealing with hiv and everything like that can really bond people and get people talking 

Kyle Risi: for sure because remember like the world has just come out of the fear that was around hiv and people like jt who were completely ostracized And people are now becoming a little bit more accepting.

Kyle Risi: So this work really resonates with people. It's probably the first time that topics like HIV and identity were finally coming to the mainstream. So he was majorly celebrated.

Kyle Risi: So people will start taking turns doing readings at these events and eventually this evolves into more notable kind of literaries signing up to read passages of JT's books at these events. And to a degree, his absence only just kind of attracts more intrigue and mystery, which only just ends up making the books just even way more popular than they are.

Kyle Risi: It's kind of like this elusive, mysterious character is just more intriguing to people because they want to know who he is and what he looks like. Is 

Adam Cox: it a bit like, um, what's that artist, S 

Kyle Risi: Sia?

Kyle Risi: Yeah, because you don't, yeah, you can see who she is, but you don't know what her face looks like. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, and it's very rarely that you see, her without a giant wig and 

Kyle Risi: sunglasses, right? Yeah, I guess maybe something more akin to it might be Banksy. Yes, yeah, that makes more sense. Yeah, because, people, they, he has an identity, but they've never met him before, and then his works resonate on a political level with so many people around the world.

Kyle Risi: So it's kind of like that, like, who is he? Like, who is this person that's making this artwork? 

Adam Cox: Underground, like, a very select few people know this person, aside 

Kyle Risi: from that. That's it. Yeah, that's it. That's a good way of saying it.

Kyle Risi: So eventually JT reluctantly agrees that he will emerge, and when he turns up, he is not what anybody expects, like he is tiny. And he's really pale and he's like kind of wearing this platinum blonde wig and he's got these huge very dark sunglasses on and he's wearing clothes that completely cover him from head to toe. And for emotional support at these events, he's accompanied by Speedy and Asta, who are like kind of his adoptive parents as we discussed earlier on.

Kyle Risi: And they're always with him just because like he's so shy he barely speaks at all during these events But when he does he speaks like in this very like timid like girlish southern accent and the audience is like WTF. But the people that he's been speaking to All these years are like, yeah, yeah, that's his voice. That's JT. And like, here's a picture of him with Speedy and Asta and oddly Courtney Love as well. Do you want to describe it for me?

Adam Cox: Uh, so, yeah, I mean, he doesn't look that tall, um, but yeah, he's got these dark, big dark glasses and, uh, yeah, platinum blonde wig. But one of those ones that you probably, you know, you look at it and it's very synthetic. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, it's obviously fake. He doesn't have any money at this point.

Kyle Risi: Yeah, true. And 

Adam Cox: I guess... Um, I mean, for someone that's quite timid and shy, this isn't subtle. 

Kyle Risi: No, it's not a subtle look, is it? No. 

Adam Cox: Um, but yeah, okay. Yeah. He, you know, you definitely spot him in a crowd, 

Kyle Risi: but he kind of has an Andy Warhol look about him, doesn't he? Oh, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And I mean, 

Adam Cox: sort of almost a bit androgynous and a little bit.

Kyle Risi: Yeah, that's it. That's the kind of like, remember he hasn't gone through puberty, so he's obviously going to be a bit androgynous looking. 

Kyle Risi: And of course fans understand obviously his trauma and they get that he wants to kind of hide under this wig and he wants to wear kind of these giant blasters to kind of help him get through these public appearances and they all just think like who are we to say anything in fact if anything this just makes him more alluring so JT Does try to get upstage at one point to address the crowd.

Kyle Risi: And he's like, hi, thanks so much for coming. Okay. Bye. And like, he just goes and sits back down because he just, yeah, he doesn't say anything, you will get up and you'll just say a few words and then he sits down. He does try to do reading at one point. But because he's just so petrified, he sits under the table that's been set up on the stage.

Kyle Risi: But after a while he just stops because he just can't do it. He's just so petrified and just so anxious. So again, people just start reading these books on his behalf at these events and he just sits in the crowd. That's really weird. And people adore him, And once they know what he looks like this fascination with him just deepens even more.

Kyle Risi: When they look at him, he's like this already made character, which just makes him even more marketable. And soon loads of celebrities are hearing about this kind of weird, genius, young writer and they start also coming to his events because everyone just wants to be seen at these events and canoodling with...

Kyle Risi: JT Leroy. He's like, literally. Canoodling. Canoodling. Maybe not canoodling. Like, cavorting? No, that's even worse. Just hanging out. Hanging out with JT Leroy, who is just literally the hottest ticket in town, I guess, at this point. 

Adam Cox: You could, the way that you described him kind of reminds me of, like, Michael Jackson in the later years.

Adam Cox: That kind of softly spoken, a little bit, like, shy and stuff like that, and maybe not really doing 

Kyle Risi: a whole lot. No, no, isn't he? Yes, he's not really doing a whole lot. He's too shy and broken and damaged. So soon after this, huge celebrities start doing these readings at his events and they become like his friends and they're all desperate to hang out with him.

Kyle Risi: We're talking like huge stars here, by the way, like we're talking Rosaria Dawson. Mm-Hmm. , uh, Courtney Love. Yeah. Gus Van Sand. Okay. Uh, Madonna. Wow. No. Winona writer. Win writer from the nineties. A little FIFA , 

Adam Cox: but she ended up in Stranger Things. She did. She 

Kyle Risi: turned it around. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah. And she's huge. So in the documentary, um, in the opening scene, there's a scene with Kana RA and a rider doing a reading, and she's just gushing over jt. Let me play that for you now

Adam Cox: wow, that was a lot. What do you mean? In terms of she really feels passionately 

Kyle Risi: about this. 

Kyle Risi: Adam, this is how much people connected with his writing. Like. It, it, like, he is a fucking good writer. 

Adam Cox: It makes me, I've obviously never read anything of his, but the way she speaks is just almost like what he's written has kind of had such a profound impact on her.

Adam Cox: Like it's almost like, uh, what you'd hear someone reading a Bible. 

Kyle Risi: Um. Yeah. Like it's spiritual. A little bit like that. Yeah.

Kyle Risi: There's a scene in the book where he has this aspiration to be just like his mother, who is a truck stop prosecute.

Kyle Risi: And they wear these lucky charms around their necks. They're raccoon penis boats. And they're like kind of a lucky charm that they wear around their neck. And. Just the way that he writes about these bones is just incredible. 

Adam Cox: Raccoon penis 

Kyle Risi: bones. So that ends up like being one of the bits of merch that they end up selling at these events because it resonates so much to people. So they literally sell raccoon penis bones. I definitely need to read

Kyle Risi: so, yeah, like some of the passages in his book is just incredible the way that he's able to really connect and use words and imagery to kind of paint these really incredible kind of pictures in your brain. So like at this point, he's a huge deal.

Kyle Risi: And celebrities are just captivated by him. People say that looking back there is a sense that kind of like the celebrity fascination with him was more exploitative than supportive because like remember he's like really timid and really damaged so there's kind of like this ickiness that People are like looking to be associated with him, especially these celebrities, just because he's this big ticket in town and it's a way of them kind of elevating their own status? 

Adam Cox: Yeah I guess

Adam Cox: there's definitely an undertone of something's happening, but I don't know what.

Kyle Risi: Yeah, So JT becomes a celebrity of the in his own right. Courtney Love is inviting him to hang out at the Four Seasons. Madonna is calling him up trying to get him into Kabbalah. And he's getting invited to all the coolest parties and As his celebrity grows, his shyness starts to dissipate and he starts doing like fashion shoots for like Abercrombie Fitch and all these different fashion brands. Check out some of these pictures.

Adam Cox: Okay, so the first one looks like... 

Kyle Risi: Is he still wearing a wig? Yeah, I think he's still wearing his wig. It's very classically shit 90s boy band, kind of like the Rasmus or something like that, you know? Yeah, and 

Adam Cox: it says, not a girl, not yet a woman. 

Kyle Risi: Oh, that's 

Adam Cox: a Britney Spears quote. That is, isn't it? Yeah. And then there's another photo of him, he's wearing like a furry coat and he's hiding 

Kyle Risi: in a bush.

Kyle Risi: Yeah, it looks like he's taking a shit in a bush. What? Right. These are Abercrombie and Fitch. That's Abercrombie? I know, it's so shit! 

Adam Cox: I mean, that's not your, your typical Abercrombie, but then they did get in trouble for doing what they did with all the boys.

Adam Cox: Apart from obviously his writing ability and his backstory, he's also like super androgynous, as you can see from these pictures. Like, he's this non binary kid. And at the time, this was really considered like, unique and cool. And he was like... He was like, really way cool before it was even cool to be androgynous or non binary.

Adam Cox: So soon after this, a bidding war erupts to be the first to secure the film rights to his books. First, Gus Van Sant, he wants to adapt Sarah into a film.

Adam Cox: And it was said to start a huge celebrity at the time. A guy called Michael Pitt. Do you know who Michael Pitt is? Do you remember him? Google Michael Pitt. Tell me if you remember him.

Adam Cox: Um, so he is an American actor, model, musician. Do I 

Kyle Risi: recognize him?

Adam Cox: Maybe. He's been in some TV show, but I don't 

Kyle Risi: know. I couldn't tell you which one.

Kyle Risi: Also, Aja Argento. So she starred in Mary Antoinette, she was also in the XXX movies with Vin Diesel. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. And famously, she was also married to Anthony Bourdain, who tragically committed suicide a few years back. Her father was also a real famous horror movie director in Italy. So she's an Italian woman.

Kyle Risi: And she wanted to adapt the second book, The Heart is Deceitful Above All Else. And she wanted to play Sarah, which is obviously JT's mother, in that film. So first, they're all negotiating for the rights to make Sarah. And this is where Gus Van Sant comes out to meet JT and Speedy in San Francisco. And he brings Michael Pitt with him, who Gus is using as a kind of lure because Michael Pitt is this huge star at the time and his thinking was that if JT thinks that a big star was going to be starring in the film, then he stood a better chance of kind of securing the rights for that film, for that book.

Kyle Risi: So Gus comes out to San Francisco and he wines and dines them and at some point JT is pictured making out with Michael Pitt and it's all over the papers. Right, okay so is Michael Pitt gay? Huge gay. Huge gay. Huge homosexual. 

Kyle Risi: So yeah, they're making out. when this gets out in the press, JT is just a superstar. To the point where JT can literally ask for anything and there are people out there that will just make it happen. For instance, he calls up a magazine and says that he wants to interview Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins. And they're like, yeah, sure. We'll make it happen. We'll set it up. 

Kyle Risi: So , when they were making the film about his second book with Aja Argento, he ends up having a full blown affair with her.

Kyle Risi: So in the marketing footage, you see them, like, cooing over each other during kind of the film's promo events, which is also a little disturbing because if you Google a picture of Arsha Ajenso, she's this very sexual looking woman.

Kyle Risi: Very attractive. Very on it, she's very aware, and then you see her with JT, who's very much immature

Adam Cox: something is definitely up, I feel like there's a publicity thing going 

Kyle Risi: on here. Yeah, when you watch them together, it's visually disturbing, but they end up in a sexual relationship for a while. So by 2005, Bruce Benison remember he was the author who mentored JT early on.

Kyle Risi: Well, he loses touch with JT and he's gutted, right? And he says that JT Leroy just stopped talking to him. He figured it was because he had made cooler friends and just moved on to bigger and better things, but he still maintains like a soft spot for him he was almost like, just more like a proud dad, just watching like his son go on to bigger and better things. Yeah, move 

Adam Cox: on. Like a teacher would watch their kids move on to the next thing. 

Kyle Risi: Exactly, exactly. He was surprised though that JT's shyness just seemed to disappear.

Kyle Risi: Like at the time, between being super shy and withdrawn and then all of a sudden getting packed with courtly love seemed like really quick to Bruce, considering how damaged he was. How many years is that then? Like we're talking. Three years? Three years. Four years at the most.

Adam Cox: I guess people get a taste of fame and, you know, they do 

Kyle Risi: change. And to him this was really weird though, considering how fucked up JT was initially. Also, at the time, other people were starting to whisper, They were saying things like, remember a few years ago when JT had cancer?

Kyle Risi: what's happening with that? Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, does he still have that? Should we all be worried? Because remember this is the 1990s when he contracted it. So that would have been a death sentence even back then as well. Yeah, 

Adam Cox: you said about having like lesions at one point.

Kyle Risi: Exactly. So in 2005, at the height of JC's fame, people started looking into his story, and it was a lot easier to do this back then because the internet was now becoming more and more mainstream.

Kyle Risi: And most people seem to be on sites like Facebook and And this is where the whole thing starts to fall apart very quickly. And very spectacularly. 

Adam Cox: It's those internet sleuths again. They're gonna uncover something. Cause I knew something was up. I mean Terminator as his 

Kyle Risi: middle name. People can be called Terminator, Adam! Yeah, I just knew something was going on. 

Kyle Risi: So. Adam. Uh huh. Not only was JT Leroy's life story not real. What? But JT Leroy himself didn't even exist. JT Leroy had been created by Speedy, who had started calling suicide hotlines which resulted in this whole thing snowballing until this character that she had made up on the fly had become the biggest literary genius of our age and was getting pap with celebrities like Courtney Love and Madonna. And I'm going to tell you exactly how all that happened.

Adam Cox: Hang on, so What? What? 

Kyle Risi: I don't 

Adam Cox: get it. Hang on. What? 

Kyle Risi: So, Speedy's real name is Laura Albert. And her boyfriend Asta, his real name is a guy called Jeff Koop.

Kyle Risi: So they weren't even their names. No, it wasn't even their names. I said it sounded like a cartoon. So they have a son together whose name is Thor, and way back in the nineties they were living in San Francisco. 

Kyle Risi: So at this time, Laura Albert, she's calling all these kid hotlines pretending to be a suicidal kid, where she would talk to various kind of doctors and psychiatrists for hours, using different characters that she would often just make up on the fly.

Kyle Risi: I have a big problem with that. Why? 

Adam Cox: This is a hotline, right? Where people, genuine people, will want to be calling up, right? And, she's possibly, I don't 

Kyle Risi: know, Holding the line up for someone who actually needs it. Exactly. That's my first thought. I thought, what? That's a really good point, actually. Oof. 

Adam Cox: I know this is supposed to be like a bit ridiculous, but first of all, serious thought. That's not cool. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, it's not, uh, what's the word? It's not kosher? It's not Jewish.

Adam Cox: So it's not kosher then. 

Kyle Risi: So Laura did have a travelling background of her own. Since childhood, she always really struggled with her weight and her self image. Which would often result in her kind of like, shying away from human interactions altogether. Believing that no one would ever want to connect with her in the body that she had.

Kyle Risi: So according to Laura, this all stemmed from being sexually abused as a kid, where she remembers being very aware of how this person that was molesting her, always preferred her to be kind of on the skinny side, even at the age of six years old. So for most of her life, she just felt completely and utterly worthless.

Adam Cox: Oh, okay, so she did feel, get, or she did experience trauma 

Kyle Risi: herself. I mean, yes, I mean this all stems from her own trauma as 

Adam Cox: it is. Okay, they kind of take that back a little bit 

Kyle Risi: then. But I mean she, in that moment in time, she is not going through some of the things that she is talking to the psychiatrist on the other end of the phone about, right?

Kyle Risi: So still. Yeah, that's, it's quite complicated. She also begins to associate love and affection with pain which is really weird. In the documentary she talks about how she would play with her dolls in, like, these really sadistic ways. She would mutilate them, for a start, and in one picture you see all of her Barbies, all naked, lined up on the sofa with their bums in the air, all waiting to be spanked. It's a glorious picture, but it's really traumatic when you understand the context.

Kyle Risi: You said 

Adam Cox: it was funny, but I'm not saying 

Kyle Risi: And because she's got all these self esteem issues. She figures out that she can kind of Like, live her life through these different characters that she invents.

Kyle Risi: Okay. 

Kyle Risi: And quite often these would spill into real life. For example, she was really into kind of the punk scene. So she would get into contact with all these different punk kind of fan groups over the phone. And she would organize to hang out with them.

Kyle Risi: But she genuinely just didn't think that anyone would want to meet up with her in real life. Because like she just thinks she's a piece of shit. So instead of going herself. Laura would send her sister in her place, she would dress her sister up as a punk and she would tell her sister exactly what to say, exactly who to meet, exactly where to go and then she would come home and then she would give her like a play by play account of everything that would happen during the evening and this is just how she lived her life for like years she's kind of like an extroverted recluse in a way it's just very interesting to me.

Kyle Risi: Mm hmm.

Kyle Risi: And when she did go out as herself, she would often assume different personas to hide behind. For instance, she sees this really hot guy so she snaps on this British accent because she believes that there's nothing more... irresistible to a guy that a British punk, and they end up dating for four months before he discovers that she's not British at all. And Adam, her accent is the worst British accent I've ever heard.

Kyle Risi: So how this idiot managed to believe that she was British for four months is beyond me because it's a really bad accent. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, I guess that's a long time to keep up as well. Yeah. What would you do? Do you just like end sentences with like pip, pip? 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, she did have a really bad Cockney accent. It was awful.

Kyle Risi: So eventually she gets gastric band surgery. She loses a ton of weight. And she totally changes her look here's a picture of her then and a picture of her now. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, she just looks like a, just a normal woman, really. 

Kyle Risi: She looks great, actually, in the before picture, why on earth she has self esteem issues, I have no idea.

Kyle Risi: She looks great. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, I guess we can't maybe drill into that, that well. But, yeah, because obviously people, what they present is not necessarily what they feel inside. But yeah, she just looks like a 

Kyle Risi: typical woman.

Kyle Risi: so everything about Laura's life is about living through these different characters. She's working as a sex phone operator where she's used to kind of living out these different personas over the phone. Right. She's very used to that. And she also becomes really good at engaging people over the phone. Like she can, she can keep you on the phone for hours. She's got this gift, this knack. She's probably not with me because I'm desperate to get people off the phone. But for some reason she managed to keep people on the line. 

Adam Cox: Well, that's good if you're a sex worker or a telephone sex worker. I guess 

Kyle Risi: so. I guess it's a skill you've got to hone over time.

Kyle Risi: Right? Yeah. Don't go! I'm nearly there! Just a few more cents! Yeah, I 

Adam Cox: guess, well, that's what you're kind of like, um, scored on, probably. 

Kyle Risi: I guess, I guess so.

Kyle Risi: So, again, round about this time, she's calling all these different lines, pretending to be other people, mostly men. And it's because she feels like the male persona would, like, command more sympathy than a female one. And these characters would often be super damaged, with really trouble paths. So she would end up talking to these hours, racking up huge phone bills, often creeping into, like, the thousands of dollars.

Kyle Risi: That she was paying for. That she was racking up. It was mental how she paid for it, I've no idea. Maybe being a sex worker paid well, I don't know. And so one day in the spur of the moment, Laura calls up this hotline and she gets through to Dr. Owens and she said that she didn't even realise that she was going to say the name Jeremiah Terminator Leroy. It just kind of fell out of her mouth when she was on the phone. 

Adam Cox: So that wasn't like premeditated?

Kyle Risi: No, it was in that moment just invented. So Dr. Owens, Bruce Benderson, her literary agents, publishers, they were all talking to Laura Albert, not realizing that she was this 35 year old woman pretending to be a 17 year old boy.

Kyle Risi: She was 35 at that time? Yeah! Wow. Isn't that mental? So, as we know, she starts writing all these stories as J. T. LeRoy which are actually very good, and so she becomes this critically acclaimed author who now has fans who now want to meet her and Laura's like, Oh no, 

Kyle Risi: So she lies and says shes got all these lesions all over her body as a result of HIV and she's too conscious to come out and meet everyone. So that's the lie that she invents. 

Adam Cox: What a world of lies. How do you keep up with that? 

Kyle Risi: So, a while later, Laura's hanging out with her boyfriend's sister, Savannah. And Savannah is around about the same age as JT. And she's kind of cool, she's got this androgynous look about her. And Laura says, you know what, you kind of remind me of JT. And she asks if she can kind of put on a southern accent.

Kyle Risi: Turns out that she can. She tapes down her boobs, she puts a wig on her and sunglasses, and just like that, Savannah becomes the public face of JT LeRoy.

Adam Cox: Oh, so that wasn't her, so that's like a, almost like a stunt double, 

Kyle Risi: sort of. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah. Crazy. So to recap, JT Leroy was created by Laura Albert, who talks as him on the phone, writes from his point of view in the book, and when JT Leroy makes public appearances, he's actually Laura's boyfriend's sister Savannah with takedown boob sunglasses and a wig.

Kyle Risi: This is ridiculous. It's mental. I love it. 

Adam Cox: Okay. Yeah, sorry, carry on then. 

Kyle Risi: They start doing public appearances meanwhile, Laura is pretending to be Speedy, who is, if you remember, JT's surrogate mother slash manager, where Speedy is sporting probably the worst British accent I've ever heard, and the plan all along was to, every now and again, When JT was needed to attend an event somewhere, Savannah would dress up as JT and then attend.

Kyle Risi: But as time went on, nobody had any idea just how huge JT would become. Remember, people are completely in love with his backstory, and they love the dark gritty glamour of JT and everything that he embodies. Like the fact that he showed up after so long and was this weird ready made character just made him even more famous.

Kyle Risi: So like she was Unfortunately, creating the snowball for herself by the uncalculated things that she just happened to do. 

Adam Cox: She couldn't, I can't imagine she would have thought it got, it would get 

Kyle Risi: this. No, she didn't. Yeah, absolutely. So Savannah is attending more and more events, JT.

Kyle Risi: starts going out more and more against Laura's wishes. Remember, Laura created JT. She wrote the books, it's her story, but is getting none of the recognition. Even worse, none of the celebrities that JT is rubbing shoulders with want to engage with her when she is with JT.

Adam Cox: Really? So she's she's always at these events then I'm assuming? Yeah, they're always there. And kind of just witnessing what she's put on, the show she's put on, but she doesn't get any of the 

Kyle Risi: thanks? She gets none of the glory. Wow.

Kyle Risi: In fact, when she chaperones JT to these events and parties, people are literally like, Your manager's kind of lame. Like, why is she even here? And Laura just starts to get really jealous. 

Kyle Risi: So every time someone phones JT on the telephone, it's actually Laura on the other end. Savannah doesn't take these calls.

Adam Cox: Right, so she's still putting on this voice, but then has she got to try and mimic the voice that 

Kyle Risi: Savannah does? Well, Savannah is kind of like mimicking JT's voice. Oh, okay, yeah. More like that way. And so she's on the phone to Kerry Fisher. Who, like I said, is Laura Albert Plain JT, and tells JT that she needs to be careful of Speedy, aka Laura, because she thinks that she is trying to take advantage of him trying to ride on his coattails.

Kyle Risi: All the while, you have Laura on the other end of the phone, listening to all of this. So, it would take every inch of my being, personally. To not scream down the phone that I'm actually JT, and you have to listen to kind of Carrie Fisher saying you need to be careful of that woman, Speedy.

Adam Cox: I don't know how sorry I feel for Laura, given that she's created this and this was always gonna, I guess, have to go this way. She has to be in the shadows. but then I guess, I don't know, the jealousy probably creeps in to a point where, yeah, it'll come 

Kyle Risi: out.

Kyle Risi: Everything else aside, regardless of what she has done, everyone can relate to when you're at school and you do a presentation with a group of people, you do all of the work and someone else is getting all the reward for it. yeah. It's horrible. Mm hmm.

Kyle Risi: So remember I said earlier on that at the height of JT's fame, he could just simply ask his publicist to set up, An interview with like whoever you wanted and they would make it happen.

Kyle Risi: And one of those people was Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins. Well, that was laura. So before the actual interview takes place, Laura has a phone call with Billy pretending to obviously be JT.

Kyle Risi: And during their conversation, Billy invites JT to a concert. But at that point, Savannah, AKA JT, is contemplating whether or not she wants to give up on being JT. anymore. So Laura dressed as speedy, goes to the concert and explains that JT just couldn't make it that night because he was ill and Billy's like, maybe next time then and he's just not interested in talking to Laura at all. But Laura can't help herself and she confesses everything to Billy. Everything. She tells him, yeah, she tells him that she's the one who's been posing as JT all along.

Kyle Risi: She's the one who's written the books. She's the person that he's been talking to on the phone and Billy is like... What the fuck? Imagine 

Adam Cox: you'd be like, what? Yeah, you wouldn't believe that straight off, right? No. You'd be like, you're just trying to like, worm your way in or, I don't know, you're crazy. 

Kyle Risi: Well, exactly.

Kyle Risi: Billie's like, okay, you're going to have to talk me through this. And for the next two hours, she explains everything. And after hearing it all, Billie's says like, I understand. And they become really close friends. Billy Corgan knew the truth, and he didn't say anything to anyone.

Kyle Risi: He's in on it. He's in on it. In fact, through Billy, Laura ends up getting a gig, writing an episode of Deadwood, and the producers all know the truth. In fact, they ask her, who's name do you want to use on the credits for the episode? Now, this is the first time where she has an opportunity to build something for herself, rather than riding on JT, who is a complete lie.

Kyle Risi: She's got the opportunity to put her own credit on this episode, but she doesn't she chooses JT Leroy I guess she's got keep 

Adam Cox: the name alive right the branding and everything like that. 

Kyle Risi: Otherwise, but remember she's jealous at this point She's like he's getting all the recognition, but now she gets the opportunity to have her own true own thing, but 

Adam Cox: then maybe If you're her like that you get this maybe one one This one off opportunity, right?

Adam Cox: And so therefore, I guess if she can kind of worm her way in and know that JT is doing these episodes and writing these episodes, maybe that secures her more work for the future? 

Kyle Risi: Possibly, I don't know. It sounds like she's really in there with some people anyway now. And she's getting this work. They gave her the opportunity to write this, this episode.

Kyle Risi: Fair point.

Kyle Risi: And then There's Aja Argento, who supposedly had a fling with JT, who in reality was Savannah. So you've got to wonder if Aja was in on this whole thing because did she not know that Savannah... wasn't a male. 

Adam Cox: So, I mean, how many celebrities were all in on this? So you had the other guy, uh... Michael Pitt? Yeah, he must have been in on it because he was kissing a woman if he's gay. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, it makes you question, like, what were the motivations? Was it that Aja was in on it because she wanted to secure the rights of the movie?

Kyle Risi: And of course, if she then... Like, tells the world that she knows and that shatters the illusion of the story. True, yeah. And then with Michael Pitt it makes you question that if Michael Pitt didn't know, Then that raises the question of informed consent, because if he didn't know who JT actually was, how could he have then given consent to making out with JT if he was homosexual and JT was actually a female at that time? Exactly, 

Adam Cox: because he would, I mean, if you're up close to this person, I imagine you'd probably know, right?

Adam Cox: I don't know. And if he's attracted to men, then... And then what about Winona Ryder? Was she just 

Kyle Risi: acting in that speech? I think she probably generally didn't know, because she wasn't intimately close to them. She admired him. And I don't, I didn't see anything about them, like, hanging out properly.

Kyle Risi: Right, okay. I'm talking about the people that were intimate. Yeah, okay. Right? The kissing. The kissing. The les the, the, the supposed straight sex happening. The 

Adam Cox: lesbianism, or the gay yeah, what's going on? 

Kyle Risi: What's going on?

Kyle Risi: So yeah, maybe Michael Pitt just kept quiet because of course Gus Van Sant was trying to secure the rights to the film Sarah. So, things are getting tense and people are starting to ask questions. 

Kyle Risi: A writer called Stephen Beachy, he's been investigating the JT Leroy story for about a year. And during his investigation, he can't find any record of anyone named Jeremiah Leroy anywhere in West Virginia, where JT is supposedly he checks birth records and he starts asking people who had known JT from the beginning, but he finds nobody who had met JT before 2002.

Kyle Risi: So there's just no evidence that he actually existed at this point. And when Stephen starts questioning what's happening with JT's... HIV, who obviously supposedly got that when he was 13 years old. And this was in the 90s, remember? So having HIV back then was a death sentence. So this is a huge red flag, right? Like what's happening with JT. So Stephen is convinced that JT is Laura, but nobody wants to run the story because nobody wants to further traumatize a guy who's already been through so much? Eventually, Stephen to accept and run his story.

Kyle Risi: And a few months before it's published, he calls JT Leroy's number. And when someone answers, it's fucking Laura Albert on the other end. And basically the gist is like, she says, if I need to be whoever the fuck I need to be, then I'll be it. Maybe I'm JT. Maybe I'm this person. Maybe I'm that person. Maybe I'm even you. And in the end, like, Stephen Beachy, like, is questioning whether or not he's got it right or not.

Kyle Risi: Like, I don't know how she manages to wiggle her way out of it. He's 

Adam Cox: questioning, Am 

Kyle Risi: I Laura? Am I? Am I JT? 

Adam Cox: Wow, she's, uh, yeah, she's persuasive.

Kyle Risi: So Stephen pieces, So Stephen's piece is published in New York magazine in October, 2005. But Stephen ultimately cannot prove that Laura is JT because he cannot ID The person in the blonde wig and the dark sunglasses claiming to be JT.

Adam Cox: So he knows Laura is not the physical being of JT. 

Kyle Risi: That's it, so when the article in the New York Magazine runs, Laura's boyfriend, Jeff, aka Asta, is relieved because he thinks that finally, this drama is over.

Kyle Risi: Like, to Jeff, what started out as something small, Just got so wildly out of hand and he could see it starting to like, just consume Laura also they have a six year old son, remember? And at that point, Jeff, isn't sure if this is a good environment for them to be raising a kid. And Jeff sees Laura is not backing down.

Kyle Risi: So Laura's just working relentlessly to maintain these lies. And Jeff has just had enough. So a reporter from the times manages to find the proof that Steven Beachy was unable to, he finds a picture of Savannah online that confirms that the person in the photograph.

Kyle Risi: was actually JT. So Jeff calls the New York Times reporter and he confesses everything over the phone and tells them that Laura is the person who wrote the books and that JT never existed at all. And finally the truth is out there. 

Adam Cox: Wow. And what did, what did people do when they found out? Because did they feel really like let down?

Adam Cox: Or, um, Yeah, some of these celebrities. Or betrayed. Betrayed, 

Kyle Risi: yeah. Yeah, that's it. that's the thing though. The public backlash was just crazy, especially from the LGBT community. They put out a statement condemning Laura's lies and they said that they were appalled by the exploitation of their struggles as a community for the purpose of fame and personal profit.

Kyle Risi: And they demanded an apology for defrauding the public into giving their money to someone who they believed was this young, struggling, seriously ill. member of the LGBT community.

Kyle Risi: Yeah, because I 

Adam Cox: guess that back then some people would say, oh, that's a reflection on our, our kind of community, right? Yeah, our struggle. And also that takes away from the people that actually need help. Yeah, real 

Kyle Risi: genuine experiences. This is, 

Adam Cox: I don't know how I feel about that. Uh, I find, like, I find the story fascinating and just like, and intriguing and intriguing, hence why we're doing it.

Adam Cox: Um, yeah, in terms of she's able to conjure up all this media hype and attention and also the creativity behind it. But the fact that she's, I guess, um, drawing on people's emotions with these quite horrific and sad stories. Yeah, I appreciate she's had some trauma in her own life, and maybe that's why she kind of could.

Adam Cox: I don't know how this came all about, but it's just a little bit, I don't know, a bit 

Kyle Risi: distasteful. Yeah, I agree. I mean, on one hand, you essentially have an artist writing fiction under a pseudonym, profiting off of a community's trauma. So like, that raises questions about an author's right to create a story.

Kyle Risi: It's not just authors either. Like, what about musicians, poets, or artists? For instance, Andy Warhol, right? He often used collectives to produce his work, meaning that a lot of his pieces weren't made by him. Warhol was also known for sending stand ins to events where people dressed in wigs, with glasses. That look like him, but nobody seems to accuse him of lying. In fact, he's celebrated for it because like he's this weird in demand artist and of course he would do that because it's so Andy Warhol. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, but I think the key difference there is the fact that whilst people can appreciate, I don't know, a ghostwriter or a bit of a stage theatrical behind an artist, right?

Adam Cox: Um, she is playing on this, this kind of victim card. That's not true. 

Kyle Risi: So it's the, the main element there is probably emotion. Emotion. 

Adam Cox: And, and, you know, you can have a story about someone that's gone through that struggle, but if it's not a personal struggle, then you're, you're kind of, you're losing people's trust, right?

Adam Cox: Yeah, 

Kyle Risi: no, I get it. I, I do get it. I see the clear distinction between the two. 

Adam Cox: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, people can definitely praise her creativity, but 

Kyle Risi: not the way she did it. So everyone who had been big supporters of JT were now just distancing themselves away from him. Celebrities were coming out saying how betrayed they felt. And Courtney Love, on the other hand, she was just like, lol. And she thought this was the funniest thing that she's ever heard. 

Adam Cox: So she must have known, right? 

Kyle Risi: No, she didn't know, but she was just like, lol. Okay, fine, I got duped, but lol.

Kyle Risi: That's so rock and roll, right? That's exactly what you expect from kind of Kurt Cobain's wife. True, true

Kyle Risi: j. T. Leroy's publishers say they tried calling Laura repeatedly for weeks and weeks, but eventually they just stopped calling because They just can't get to the bottom of things.

Kyle Risi: So they dropped JT as an author because he doesn't technically exist. Yeah. So two years later, Laura gets taken to court by the production company who bought the rights to one of her books. Oh, really? Yeah. And they say that they bought the rights of the book because of JT's persona and reputation. And now both of these things turned out to have never existed in the first place. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, 

Adam Cox: there's no, um, that's like just putting Mickey Mouse on a contract. Might 

Kyle Risi: as well, yeah. Laura tries to convince the court that she never meant for any of this to happen, saying that JT was real to her. Yeah. And that she couldn't help the way that people just reacted to the works.

Adam Cox: Um, I don't buy that, Laura. Like, Laura, honey, listen. That, that's bollocks.

Adam Cox: Because I mean, people can watch a film and get emotional about that and be drawn to that piece of work, but it's fiction, right? Yeah. 

Kyle Risi: Ah, well, Laura's lawyers argued that JT's books were technically sold as works of fiction. Oh, 

Adam Cox: yes, but by, really? So, yeah. Oh, because these were like stories inspired 

Kyle Risi: by.

Kyle Risi: So I think that's the anger. The social anger comes from the, the fact that they weren't inspired. They were completely made up. Inspired is one thing made up as another thing. So on a legal level, she's fine, but on a social level, it's a massive betrayal because we were led to believe that they were rooted in some kind of.

Kyle Risi: Truth. Truth, I guess. Yeah. But ultimately the court does rule against her and she is ordered to pay back more than 300, 000. Good. 

Kyle Risi: But even though she loses, Laura doubles down and she says that it was all performance art. She says that although JT Leroy's story wasn't real, he was alive and that the books he created are still valid.

Kyle Risi: And that anyone can be JT 

Adam Cox: Leroy. I Shut up, Laura.

Kyle Risi: I mean, to a degree I understand, but remember people talked to JT Leroy for hours and hours over the phone because they thought that they were helping a 15 year old suicidal boy with HIV.

Kyle Risi: And I'm sorry, but it sounds like Laura took advantage of people's generosity and kindness of spirit. Exactly. So no, as for Savannah, they, up to this point, she wasn't a they, but she's they now and. Like, they think that she was manipulated by Laura. Savannah is now an artist, and on her bio, she says that they played the role of J.

Kyle Risi: T. LeRoy from 1999 to 2005. So it was a performance art. What a credit to take. Yeah, 

Adam Cox: I just... Yeah, it baffles me. 

Kyle Risi: Savannah also says that this is what led them to understand their own gender identity a bit better. Savannah does write a book in 2007 called Girl Boy Girl Boy, How I Became JT Leroy. Which turned into a movie in 2019 starring Kirsten Stewart as JT Leroy, which perfect casting for that. I was gonna say this should be a film. Yeah, and also Laura Dern play Speedy. Laura Dern, Laura Dern.

Kyle Risi: Oh come on, from Jurassic Park. Oh of course, Laura Dern. Oh yeah, no way. What a brilliant cast. So we were watching that tonight. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, I didn't, this is cool, I didn't realise it was a film. So 

Kyle Risi: Also every phone call, with the celebrities, doctors and authors that Laura had under the persona of JT, They're all recorded, and in this documentary called Authors, the JT DeRoy story, they play most of them, and it's crazy.

Kyle Risi: There are messages from Tatum O'Neill, Madonna, Rosio Dawson, there are dozens of them, possibly hundreds, and the documentary tells the whole story from Laura's perspective. So it's kind of more kind of sympathetic towards her, but it's all about she's crazy.

Kyle Risi: Don't get me wrong. I think she's delusional that she thinks people are going to sympathize. But she tells the story and it's quite raw and it's quite real. She explains where all this came from. Do you think a lot 

Adam Cox: of the celebrities, they kind of have to disown her and I wonder how many actually knew? Mmm, because they can't admit to that because then that would look bad on them. It would 

Kyle Risi: do. I imagine there'd be a lot more people that knew. I wouldn't be surprised if the publishers also knew to a degree, and then when it all came out, they were like, Mmm, shit's hit the fan, we need to distance ourselves.

Adam Cox: Oh yeah, of course, like, oh, we're making money, and it's fine, until it's not. 

Kyle Risi: Yeah, I wouldn't even be surprised if they were the ones who were like, Leroy, it's fine. Yeah. And then court order came along, got their money back. Yeah, so if you get the opportunity, watch that documentary, Authors, the story of JT DeRoy.

Kyle Risi: It's probably a little bit too long, it's like two hours, um, in the documentary, they play a recording from Courtney love, where Courtney says, Babe, babe, babe, like listen, I've got like a real short line of coke, um, and I don't really want to put you on hold, do you mind if like a Just do it real quick.

Kyle Risi: And Laura as JT is like, yeah, sure. And Courtney then proceeds to take the longest, most awkward snort of cocaine I've ever heard in my entire life. And it just feels like it just goes on for ages and ages. And it's literally why the documentary is two hours long. Do you want to listen to it? Sure. Okay. Huge buzz in the publishing community. I have a really small line of Coke and I don't wanna put you on hold. Do you mind if I do it? No, go. No,

Kyle Risi: but let's write it together. That is not a real small line of coke. That's 

Adam Cox: just 

Kyle Risi: breakfast. I just love that so much. Brilliant. 

Kyle Risi: So, yeah. Um, and that is the story of the greatest literary hoax of all time. 

Adam Cox: Yeah, that's, that is, it's a funny story in terms of just like the ridiculousness and how, how extreme it went.

Adam Cox: Yeah. Um, Morally, not 

Kyle Risi: quite sure. No, it does raise some really interesting questions. 

Adam Cox: But, um, I do like, yeah, it's crazy this is real. I can't believe it. I've never heard of this. 

Kyle Risi: I think we were just on the cusp, you know, if we were just a little bit older, we would have known. Probably, yeah.

Kyle Risi: Good. Should we, uh, run the outro? Let's do it. And so we come to the end of another episode of The Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. If you found today's episode both fascinating and intriguing, then subscribe and leave us a review.

Kyle Risi: But please don't just stop there. Schedule your episodes to download automatically so you never miss an episode. We're on Instagram at The Compendium Podcast. So, stop by, say hi, or visit our home on the web at thecompanionpodcast. com. We release every Tuesday. And until then, remember, in the library of life, sometimes the truest stories are often found in the fiction section.

Kyle Risi: See you next time. Bye.