Dr. Donald Cline: Conceived in Deceit, the Infamous Fertility Scandal

Adam Cox: 0:01

and the nurse who works with Dr. Cline, said that she would pop over to the local hospital to collect sperm specimens from these medical students. And she knew a lot of them as well. Oh did she? Ha ha ha ha ha.

Kyle Risi: 0:14

I'm gonna just pop over to like, where The sexy medical students are. And get some, samples.

Adam Cox: 0:19

She does take the specimen back in an interesting way because you have to keep it at room temperature, or body temperature I should say, not room temperature. Oh my god,

Kyle Risi: 0:26

does she put it between her

Adam Cox: 0:27

cleavage? She does! OH

Kyle Risi: 0:31

Oh, man, I knew it!

Adam Cox: 0:59

Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. Stories from darker corners of true crime. Mind blowing historical events and legendary people. We give you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. I'm your host for today, Adam Cox. And I'm

Kyle Risi: 1:17

your co host for today,

Adam Cox: 1:18

Kyle Risi. And in today's compendium, we are exploring an assembly of hidden origins silently woven into the genetic code of a bunch of strangers. What?

Kyle Risi: 1:28

What does that even mean? No idea.

Adam Cox: 1:30

About DNA? DNA, yes, exactly that. Just DNA? Well, yeah, and how it connects a bunch of strangers. What are we covering today? we're going to be focusing on a woman named Jacoba Ballard. Jacoba?

Kyle Risi: 1:46

Jacoba. What a name! You don't get many Jacobas

Adam Cox: 1:48

these days, do you? This is the only Jacoba I know of. Oh, okay.

Kyle Risi: 1:52

Yeah. Laughter.

Adam Cox: 1:54

Jacob's life. Took a turn when she underwent an at-home DNA test, revealing the existence of seven half siblings. Upon connecting with her newfound family and delving into the shared mystery of how they were all related, Jacoba and her siblings were soon horrified to uncover the unsettling truth about what their parents trusted doctor had done.

Kyle Risi: 2:17

What? Hang on, they were all, so they had no idea that they were all brother and sister from like Their own father, like her father or her mother. it must be the father. The father's been doing the dirty and he wasn't there. He What? What?

Adam Cox: 2:32

I think you just rambled. I don't know why. I think I did. Hang

Kyle Risi: 2:35

on. I'm so

Adam Cox: 2:36

confused. we're going to explore exactly what this doctor did, why he might have done it. and what the repercussions of those actions were.

Kyle Risi: 2:45

Oh my god, I've never heard of this story before and I'm so living for it today.

Adam Cox: 2:49

Cool, before we get into that, shall we?

Kyle Risi: 2:52

Oh, I never get to say this bit, but it's time for all the latest

Adam Cox: 2:56

things. Let's do it.

Kyle Risi: 3:06

So I was I was scrolling through, racist Twitter and, of course, all stuff with

Adam Cox: 3:13

X. It's just X. Oh, it's X now, isn't it? We should always say it's X, formerly known as Twitter. no,

Kyle Risi: 3:17

no. I refuse to give in to this fantasy of Elon Musk. It's Twitter to me.

Adam Cox: 3:23

And when are they going to stop saying that, formerly known as Twitter? I

Kyle Risi: 3:26

don't know. It's just, it's so dumb. But anyway, so I was scrolling through misogynistic, Twitter because, recently Let's just maybe laugh, and I don't believe any of this, but it just made me laugh. recently, Iceland had a women's march, where the women went on strike, 100, 000 women across the country. Now remember, this is a country. that has a population of 370, 000 people. I was just

Adam Cox: 3:49

thinking, what was the population? That's a third of Iceland. Yeah,

Kyle Risi: 3:52

huge amount. So 100, 000 women went on strike and it was all about gender equality and gender pay, right? And the entire population, like I said, of Iceland is 000 people. So 25 percent of the population went on strike this day. And some misogynists pulled out some really interesting stats about how the economy performed. On that day.

Adam Cox: 4:15

Right, okay.

Kyle Risi: 4:17

So, um, the economy, didn't come to a stop. As many people believed. And, the only memo that they got was that HR departments were getting, way less complaints in the 24

Adam Cox: 4:27

hours. Well, there were less people around to complain, but yeah. They're They're not all women, surely. I think

Kyle Risi: 4:32

that they're insinuating that it's the women. Wow. and one CEO said that it was nice to just finally get some shit done.

Adam Cox: 4:39

What? That's awful. That's what they've been

Kyle Risi: 4:41

peddling on misogynistic Twitter. Isn't that awful?

Adam Cox: 4:45

So,

Kyle Risi: 4:48

yeah, no HR complaints and they got some shit done that day. Wow.

Adam Cox: 4:53

Yeah. Wow.

Kyle Risi: 4:54

Oh, and the next thing so I've got a bit of a bone to pick with some of our American listeners. Okay. And I know we have many, cause a lot of our listeners are American. So I was talking to one of our listeners, over the last week. Hi, Audrey from Ohio. Yeah. Hi, Audrey. I bet you never thought I had a. Give you a little shout out there. Oh no. But we were having a little chat about one of our more recent episodes that was posted in August, which Audrey only referenced by date, right? I was thinking, oh, she's talking about the Amelia Earhart episode. And I was like, oh, this doesn't quite make sense, but okay, maybe I understand her points. And I just responded. And then she responded, and it turned out that, yeah, we both had no idea what we were talking about. Because she was referring to an episode that was released in October, the Jennifer Fairgate one. Oh, okay. And, guys, she wrote the date. Month, day, year. Guys, it's day, month, year. What is that about? because that makes sense, right? it's smallest to largest, not month. Yeah, I just, how do you guys not get confused when you're booking, concert tickets and tour dates and things like that. I just don't get it. It

Adam Cox: 5:57

is odd. I guess when you see 31 in the middle section, you always go oh, hang on, what's going on? Oh, it's American Day. Yeah, but then you've got to

Kyle Risi: 6:04

go through your brain and you've got to work, you've got to do the conversion and it just doesn't sit right with me. But yeah, so I apologize for the confusion. I apologize for sounding like a complete idiot So, um. Did you have a nice chat about it? It doesn't matter what we were chatting about, she was just complimenting us on how insightful the episode was and which bits she really liked so yeah, Amelia Earhart was not murdered in a hotel room. And there was not evidence inside the hotel room that might indicate where Amelia Earhart was. So, yeah. but in future I need to just be a bit more vigilant about how I understand dates because we have so many American listeners,

Adam Cox: 6:42

so. Well thanks Audrey for your kind comments and I apologise for Kyle criticising how you look at dates. I'm

Kyle Risi: 6:49

sorry! yeah, so that's all my latest things for the week.

Adam Cox: 6:51

What have you got for us? so as we know we recognise different types of genders now and sexuality, so recently You're a

Kyle Risi: 6:58

gender, do you know that? Like there is a gender that's named after Adam. Oh really? Yeah, I can't remember what it does. The

Adam Cox: 7:03

first man gender? I can't

Kyle Risi: 7:05

remember what it is. I just remember seeing a list Okay of 300 genders and at the top of that gender in alphabetical order was like Adam's

Adam Cox: 7:12

gender That's so egotistical of me Well

Kyle Risi: 7:16

it's you who submitted that I want

Adam Cox: 7:18

a gender So this, and obviously I'm not, saying that there's only two genders, but this particular woman came out as Hey, what are you saying, Adam? you'll find out. Okay, okay, sorry. This woman recently came out as eco sexual. so I don't know what that meant. Does she just like, I don't know, nature and being environmentally green? I don't know. She gets off on it.

Kyle Risi: 7:37

Oh my god. someone's recycling. I have like a little bit of a

Adam Cox: 7:40

moment. That's a lot of emotion for recycling. so a woman, yeah, she's opened up about being in a relationship with. Shut up. A tree. She is a 45 year old. She lives in Vancouver Island, British Columbia. and she was experiencing feelings of loneliness when she stumbled upon a unique connection with an oak tree. Okay.

Kyle Risi: 8:01

Was it a, very, unusual, interesting, attractive oak tree?

Adam Cox: 8:04

there is a picture in this article, but I don't know if it's THE oak tree or if it's just Shutterstock. So I just don't know. Either way, it gives me an idea of perhaps what she was feeling at that time. It gives you an

Kyle Risi: 8:16

idea of what a tree is, right? It doesn't tell you about the individual.

Adam Cox: 8:20

But the point is, she's been on Please don't say dates on trees.

Kyle Risi: 8:24

Going through my Tinder matches, swiping left on

Adam Cox: 8:25

a couple trees. no, it all started from lockdown. So she was going on her daily walks in 2020. and it wasn't until the summer of 2021 when she began to have an, a, she calls it an erotic experience with this tree. She explains, I was walking a path near the tree five days a week for the whole winter and I noticed a connection with that tree. I would lie against it and there was a eroticism with something so big and so old holding my back.

Kyle Risi: 8:53

Sounds like she's into old people and she's just been misdirected.

Adam Cox: 8:56

I don't, you know, Oak Tree is pretty old. She was looking to find a person who made her feel such a way, but ultimately she says that she ended up finding it with the tree and she didn't find it with another human being. And the feeling of being tiny and supported by something so solid, was, she just couldn't resist. and she had this craving, this rush of energy that comes when you meet a new partner. And that's how she compares it. Wow! and she says, despite this, and I will say this the last time, erotic energy, uh, with the tree. Um, it's not a sexual relationship. It's just this kind of, it's a bit of a misconception, I guess. She thinks that's what you go do with a tree, but it's just this feeling that she has this, desire. to be with this tree, and she says she encourages everyone to go out and do it, so, you know, next time you go for a walk, just have a look around, see if you can pitch yourself with a nice, I don't know, birch, willow, whatever it might be.

Kyle Risi: 9:53

Well, I mean, it's a good job that, you are allowed to shoot trespassers on your land. I imagine she's not going to live very long if a farmer comes along and sees her being intimate with the trees, Audrey, get the shotgun!

Adam Cox: 10:04

Well, if I wake up one day and I look out the window, and I see someone there just laying against my tree in the backyard, that'd be weird. I mean,

Kyle Risi: 10:12

most of our trees are shrubs, so that would be a bit weird. And they'll be in our garden. Yeah. It's not like it's a big field or

Adam Cox: 10:18

anything. We should really lock the gate,

Kyle Risi: 10:20

just in case. Oh, Laura from across the road is propped up against one of our bushes again.

Adam Cox: 10:24

so yeah, that's my, latest thing. Great,

Kyle Risi: 10:26

I love it. Should we get on with the story?

Adam Cox: 10:28

Let's do it.

Kyle Risi: 10:32

So, tell me

Adam Cox: 10:33

about these siblings. These siblings. Well, as I mentioned, the story starts with, Jacoba. And she was born on August 26th, 1980. I feel like I've done the date as an American then, just to annoy you. There you go, Audrey. And growing up, she always felt a bit different to her family. She was blonde haired, blue eyed, and had, or has fair skin, not had, she has fair skin, but her family had dark hair and olive coloured skin. And she kept asking her mum, Debbie, if she was adopted, probably sort of joking, but maybe with a hint of seriousness and perhaps she just needed some reassurance. her mum would say, appearance didn't matter, but Jacoba was adamant. Like, if I am adopted please tell me I'll be okay with

Kyle Risi: 11:18

it. What did her parents think about it? did they not go, obviously, I don't want to startle Jacoba and go, and obviously they give no reassuring words. it doesn't matter. And then behind the scenes, they're going, she's got a point, What? Why

Adam Cox: 11:32

is she so white? Well, the thing is, the mum does tell her the truth when she's 10. And Oh, so the parents knew! the parents didn't adopt her, but what they did do is they used a sperm donor so that they could have a baby. Oh, I see. So Debbie is her biological mother.

Kyle Risi: 11:48

Oh, so it's not a big deal when, I don't know what's going to happen, but it's not, won't be a big deal. It's not like they're finding out that, you are not my dad, because they went for a sperm donor anyway. But I guess Carry on. Carry

Adam Cox: 11:59

on. I don't know what's happening. yeah, there's a lot to unpack. so yes, Debbie, her mother, is her biological mother, and her dad is, not her biological dad, but obviously raised her. What was wrong with the dad? they weren't able to conceive, so they wanted a family, really badly. but they couldn't do it through natural means, because Debbie's husband was infertile. So they went to a fertility clinic, and there was a doctor there called Donald Klein, and they were looking to have artificial insemination. so just a year before Jacoba was born, Dr. Klein had started his own clinic which specialized in infertility and reproduction and he would go on to treat thousands of cases in Indianapolis Through not just sperm donors, but also laser treatments. So he was like the speciality Person you would go to in that area if you had any fertility

Kyle Risi: 12:49

problems. So he's the top guy, right? your healthcare can cover it then that's

Adam Cox: 12:53

where you want to go Yeah, exactly And being a sperm donor back then, you didn't have perhaps the same level of processing and scrutiny that you do have now. Yes, you still had to be free of diseases or things that would, or possibly could be passed on through inheritance. Okay. and you couldn't necessarily, I think you could probably specify certain traits you might want in a father, i. e. I want them to look like me or whatever, So what are you looking

Kyle Risi: 13:17

for there? So when you say you want someone to kind of like, look like me, you're talking about like blonde hair,

Adam Cox: 13:22

blue eyes? I think so. Skin colour, things like that, where obviously to try and make the child fit within the family. And I'm assuming

Kyle Risi: 13:29

Jacoba's parents have said, can we have someone with olive skin?

Adam Cox: 13:33

When Debbie was in her early 20s, Dr. Klein had found a donor which supposedly looked a lot like Debbie's husband. Okay. Maybe, I don't know, a tall man. I don't know how you could tell, right? But supposedly that's what he said. And a lot Oh, so she's just taken his word for it. Yeah, there wasn't like a catalogue where you go, this is a finance person, this person lived in Nepal and all that sort of stuff. So

Kyle Risi: 13:55

no photographs. It's not like a line up. No. Like, oh yeah, I I want his sperm Ew, no.

Adam Cox: 14:00

no, because a lot of the donors, uh, sperms, sperms, uh, would come. I mean, there are more

Kyle Risi: 14:06

than one. Do you want

Adam Cox: 14:07

me to sit down with you and tell you how it works? There's millions, I know. Um, yeah, a lot of the donors, would come from medical students who are working in the hospital, very close to the clinic. And there's a nurse who works. You like it as a way to make money? I guess so, yeah, on the side as they're putting themselves through health school. And the nurse who works with Dr. Cline, said that she would pop over to the local hospital to collect specimens from these medical students. And she knew a lot of them as well. Oh did she? Ha ha ha ha ha. Not like that. Ha ha ha! I mean maybe like

Kyle Risi: 14:41

that. She knew them personally. I'm gonna just pop over to like, where The sexy medical students are. And get day sperm. And get some, get some samples.

Adam Cox: 14:50

She does take the specimen back in an interesting way because you have to keep it at room temperature, or body temperature I should say, not room temperature. Oh my god,

Kyle Risi: 14:56

does she put it between her

Adam Cox: 14:57

cleavage? She does! OH

Kyle Risi: 15:01

Oh, man, I knew it! So, the nurse is back at the hospital with, um, some sperm between her boobs

Adam Cox: 15:09

Yes, that's how she would keep it warm, and she'd go back to the clinic. And then it would be used on a patient because the thing is back then you couldn't use frozen sperm, it'd have to be fresh sperm. I guess they perhaps didn't have the science to be able to maybe deal with it that way. Okay. so hence why they had to keep it, at body temperature. So what's the shelf life of unfrozen sperm? I have no idea. Okay. but she had to get it across quite quickly. I know people personally in life who've had to give a specimen and they can't do it at the hospital. They have to do it at home and then keep it warm and then take it to the hospital to get tested. Oh, like really quickly. like that really. So I think you've got quite a short window essentially. It's like

Kyle Risi: 15:48

an episode of 24 where like

Adam Cox: 15:49

every minute counts. It does. So Debbie and her husband agreed to the procedure, and were both very happy with the outcome as they got to welcome Jacoba into the world, they became just one of Dr. Klein's success stories. Once Jacoba found out that her biological father was a sperm donor, she naturally has this curiosity about her family history, and whether she's Has any siblings out there, essentially, she wanted to have a bond with a brother or sister, which you didn't get to have naturally, I guess. And all her parents could say to her was that it was a sperm donor, and that whilst there could be siblings, a sperm donor was only allowed to have their sperm used up to three times. So at most, Chocoba could have maybe two siblings. Sure, okay. That was it. And the reason for that was, because they're in this small area, or some town. if there was no cap on this, then you could be bumping into your brothers and sisters all over the

Kyle Risi: 16:42

place. Sure, yeah. And laws change, right? And the last thing you want to do is for a law to change and then all of a sudden you're responsible for 300 kids as a, kind of child

Adam Cox: 16:51

support. Yeah, well, that's that. there's also just, you know, inbreeding and also the health conditions that go along with that. Yeah, I guess so. So I think it's, trying to do good. I always thought these kind of things were pretty rare or like never happened But I always remember that story on Hollyoaks where I think there was a guy This Hollyoaks is a like a teen soap opera in the UK Yeah for teens and there was a guy that ended up dating a girl who turned out to be his sister And I thought how does that happen? I think it was Reese. It was ages ago, and he was dating his

Kyle Risi: 17:20

sister I can't remember

Adam Cox: 17:21

that. I think so And I see these new stories like pop up most years and there was one At the end of last year, I think it was where a man found out that he had married his half sister. And it isn't always because they share the same sperm donor, but also because I know people have affairs. Right? Or they Mm-Hmm. have a, relationship that they keep a secret. So this man, in this story, never knew his father other than that he was a tall son of a bitch. That's what his mum told him. Um, and I think because his dad never really wanted anything to do with him. So that's why he was a bitch. Well, because he's

Kyle Risi: 17:52

completely excluded from the three of them, or the two of them. Yeah, three of

Adam Cox: 17:55

them. so she never shared much about the dad to this guy. And he marries this girl that he meets, but at the same time, sadly, his mum dies from cancer. So when he's clearing out his mom's stuff, he comes across these photos of his mom with this man, which of course turned out to be his wife's dad. Okay. And so when they asked the dad, and he admits that he, he got a girl pregnant in college, but couldn't handle it and left her. Yeah. He's then left to this thing like, oh God, I've just found the girl in my dreams. I've married her, she's now my half sibling. do we stay together, we want to have kids. And that's a real life

Kyle Risi: 18:28

story. Yeah. Well, what can you do? I mean, Surely, it's illegal in some states, right?

Adam Cox: 18:33

it's illegal pretty much anywhere to marry your half sibling, with the exception of Knowingly marry? Yeah, I guess so. Knowingly, yeah. I

Kyle Risi: 18:42

mean, there probably wouldn't be any charges against these people who accidentally

Adam Cox: 18:45

I guess so, but if you do find out, do you then have to unmarry?

Kyle Risi: 18:48

Or does it, or is it just automatically annulled?

Adam Cox: 18:50

I don't know, because the only place I found out that you could get married to your half sibling is Sweden, and that's with special permission.

Kyle Risi: 18:57

Okay, that's a whole different thing to unpack. But that's crazy, and these things happen. People say, something really unusual happens when you are growing up with your siblings in the first, six years of your life, which makes you have an aversion to your siblings and your family members, which helps to stop inbreeding. But this is why so many siblings who don't grow up together There's a high chance that you will be attracted to that person if you meet them later in life because we're attracted to people that are genetically similar to us or have similar traits or look very similar to us and therefore there's an attraction there so these people they meet years later and they have this weird attraction but because they didn't grow up together there's a high chance Likelihood that they will fall in love and you see it happen sometimes with even like fathers

Adam Cox: 19:44

and daughters. Oh my god Oh, yeah, so this happened so I can understand the rules why they definitely wanted to put a cap on these sperm donors Oh, yeah, that was the original point. That was the point before we got sidetracked crazy world So yeah when she was around 18 or 19, she gets in touch with Dr. Klein to see if he had any information that he could provide on her biological father, a donor number, because she knew that she wasn't going to get a name or anything like that, you know, there is that sensitivity, but she wanted something that might perhaps lead her to a sibling she wasn't expecting to find her father. Sure. And he was very matter of fact. He said that he wasn't able to provide anything like that, even if he could, the records had been destroyed, he wished her well, good luck, and that was it. Okay. And so Jacoba had to be fine with that, knowing that she may never really find anything out. So she gets on with her life, she leads a pretty normal life, she marries her high school sweetheart, she has two kids, she works as an emergency medical technician, and, for her, that's it. She thinks she should just get on with the rest of her life. But then something comes along, a little thing called 23andMe. Oh yeah. So 23andMe started around 2007, and it became the first company to begin offering, this DNA testing through spit, to find out your ancestry. and I think it's the same, piece of technology that now everyone uses, all these other companies out there. Yeah, yeah. but it was the invention of the year back in 2008. Uh, and it was a huge achievement, but it didn't really get widely popular until around 2014 when it started appearing on TV and we've done it a while back and it's pretty fascinating, isn't it? you get this home testing kit, you spit in the tube, you register it online, and then within a couple of weeks, once you've sent it off and it's, they run it through their systems. A couple of weeks.

Kyle Risi: 21:25

It took Seven weeks, eight weeks,

Adam Cox: 21:27

two months, I think. Oh, well, yeah, it takes a little while. It's not as easy as they say it is. Yeah, well, it gets sent off to America, doesn't it? I think it did.

Kyle Risi: 21:34

Yeah. And what is really fun about it, you can actually follow your sample, like. throughout the world. Like I think it goes to obviously London and then it flies over to the States and then you see it going to I think a couple different sites and then you see it like traveling through the system. It's really cool.

Adam Cox: 21:50

Yeah and when you get the results back you find out where your ancestry originates from, so different countries, you find out the likelihood you are to have freckles, or things like, you're a disliked A hairy back. Yeah, or a dislike for coriander, or, cilantro, whatever you call it. it's interesting the things that it tells you. and it turns out my sister is more Neanderthal than me. I I can't remember, but it was quite high in comparison to me. but there we go. and of course you find out people. that's not

Kyle Risi: 22:16

surprising. I've met your sister.

Adam Cox: 22:18

Which one are we talking about? Oh, we're not going to go into that. But of course you can find people that you are related with. And, normally it comes up with you have a thousands of distant cousins. Yes. and they're like 4, 5, 6 cousin, which means you share potentially a great, great, great, great grandparent or even beyond that.

Kyle Risi: 22:38

Sure, yeah, like when I get, I occasionally get like notifications saying, Oh, you have a relative that's been identified and you go into it and they say Oh, you share, 0. 2 percent of your DNA. Exactly.

Adam Cox: 22:50

And it's quite rare to actually locate someone who has a second or third cousin, although weirdly one did come up for me this week, which is on my mum's side. So I'm going to reach out and find out a little bit more about that. How much percentage

Kyle Risi: 23:01

DNA did they have?

Adam Cox: 23:02

Four or 5%. that's quite high, actually. Yeah, exactly. So it's someone that's relatively close. Yeah. in the grand scheme of things. But essentially, for that to happen, it's pretty rare, you don't normally get that kind of relative that comes up. And that's what Jacoba thought, maybe she would find perhaps a cousin that somehow you might be able to link to a half sibling once you had a chat with him. And so she wasn't expecting to find necessarily the donor, and she says donor because, you know, a dad, regardless of biology and everything. So when Jacoba gets the results back in 2014, at the age of 35, she remembers that day vividly as the report from 23 and me had connected her DNA, not just to one sibling Uhhuh, but to seven half siblings.

Kyle Risi: 23:46

Wow. so the DNA on that percentage must be really high.

Adam Cox: 23:50

Yeah, I

Kyle Risi: 23:50

so basically what I'm hearing here is that, there was this rule that was in place that whoever the donor was, that they were only allowed to be used three times maximum because of course to stop inbreeding, she was aware of this.

Adam Cox: 24:03

Yeah, I

Kyle Risi: 24:03

So it's a bit of a surprise to her to find out, okay, so she actually has seven potential siblings. And that's just actually on the website?

Adam Cox: 24:11

That's just on the website. Wow, okay, interesting. and for her, she's quite excited by this because she's like, Yes, I've got siblings, but I'm a bit concerned because I'm not expecting this many. Yeah. What is going on?

Kyle Risi: 24:22

So it hasn't just been used seven times.

Adam Cox: 24:25

Well, um, One thing she wants to be certain of is that perhaps, there is a chance, okay, say there's a couple of extra half siblings out there. Could these other siblings that she's connected to be the family of the sperm donor? Oh, okay, of course, of

Kyle Risi: 24:38

course, of course. She does know that

Adam Cox: 24:39

they're siblings. Yes, but because they're half siblings, that suggests that they share different parents, right? Okay, so

Kyle Risi: 24:47

they have one. Single denominator in common. Yes, between them all. Interesting.

Adam Cox: 24:52

Jacoba makes contact with her half siblings and each weekend they would catch up and look at Ancestry. com to try and determine how they were connected in their family tree. And they even joked at one point, wouldn't it be crazy if the fertility doctor became our dad? The fertility doctor's their dad! But they disregarded that, like, nah, what are the chances? anyway, I'll get back to that. Pshh.

Kyle Risi: 25:17

Oh god.

Adam Cox: 25:18

They focused on the paternal matches and they found that they all match a lady called Sylvia, their second cousin. So they connected with her and they start asking what surnames were in Sylvia's tree. She gives them a whole list of names and one of them was Swinford and they connected the name Swinford, to Dr. Donald Cline's mother's maiden name. So Jacoba asked Sylvia, is there a chance that Cline is in your family tree? And Sylvia goes, oh my gosh, yes, of course. yeah, that's, that's my grandfather's brother's daughter. She married a Klein. What, Calvin Klein or Dr. Klein? Dr. Klein. She married a guy named Don. He's a doctor. And then just like that, Jacoba's like, her worst fears or things that they may be suspected were like, okay, it's him, isn't it?

Kyle Risi: 26:06

Okay, yeah, it's looking likely. So

Adam Cox: 26:08

what happens? WEll, jacoba and her siblings needed to find out if he's lied, if he is actually the father, because they didn't have any hard evidence at this stage, that could link it to him exactly. and Jacoba files a complaint with the local attorney general's office, who I think are a body that provides legal advice and things like that, and she gets a generic response back. And nobody really gets back to her with any real significant information and she tries and tries and she's getting nowhere. Uh, so Jacoba thinks the next best thing is to draw attention to this, by contacting all the international news outlets. But again, no one really responds to her story. And then she lands on contacting a woman, Angela Ganotte. Uh, reporter and news presenter for a local news station called Fox 59. And she gets in touch with her via Facebook. Chikova gives her a full recount of everything. what's happened, who are the siblings et cetera, and Angela she's equally frustrated that Chocoba's not getting answers from anyone, and so she takes on the story, and so she reaches out to Dr. Kline, and he denies, being the father, that the sperm donors were all above board, and that it's not possible for Chocoba to have more than just a couple of siblings. So he flat out denies it when he's, pressured by this reporter. Yeah. Of course he would do, right? Exactly. of course, someone in his position probably would deny that. she follows up with an offer to say, like, why don't you just get your DNA tested? That will clear you from all these allegations, and, we can put it to bed. This is the best way that you could help. And he was like, nope, not doing that. So Angela takes the story to air, and they cannot use the name for legal reasons at this time, because without a DNA sample, they can't really move forward. But it's a story that's in the news now. And this resulted in one of Jacoba's half siblings to reach out to Klein's children that were over 18 and say like we think your dad might be our dad. I see. And so his children take a bit of time but they eventually agree to meet with Jacoba and the siblings. And these

Kyle Risi: 28:01

siblings hadn't done a 23andMe. At this point.

Adam Cox: 28:05

No, not at this point. And these, this was the family of Donald. So they're going to try

Kyle Risi: 28:09

and convince them to do that then,

Adam Cox: 28:10

I'm assuming. Yeah, or at least try and get more answers or try and use them to get to Donald, I guess. And now that Donald, Klein's children are involved, when they speak with him, he actually admits to them that, yeah, all right, that probably is my sperm. So he admits to his own children. Shit, what did they say? He says to his children that his sperm couldn't have been used more than 10 times. 10 times is the maximum amount of times that he could have been used. I thought it was three times the max. I know, But he's special. Yeah, he's special. He's a doctor's sperm. this is obviously not cool at all, there is now some admission and finding out the truth for Jacoba and her other half siblings. But back to the news story that was on Fox 59, it captures the attention of a lady named Julie Her husband thought that his wife, Julie, looked a lot like Jacoba who was on the news. Blue eyes, blonde hair, fair skin. And Julie calls her mum as she knew that her mother had used a fertility doctor whilst trying to get pregnant with her. She says to her, should I get a DNA test? And mum's like, no, we use your father's sperm. He just helped us. Oh, inseminated. Exactly. Yeah. I see. This doesn't apply to you. Don't worry about it But the uncanny resemblances really troubled Julie And so she searches for Jacoba online and reaches out to her to try and get some advice Okay, and Jacoba's like well, I've got no idea I can't confirm but just get a DNA test and then that will tell you everything so Julie gets a DNA test and She gets results back. Yeah, and one of the people connected to her is Jacoba as a half sibling. Really, so that

Kyle Risi: 29:44

little list of seven relatives on 23andMe is just growing and growing. That's

Adam Cox: 29:50

right, keeps adding another one or two every now and then. but this for Julie it completely changes her world because She thought her biological dad was her dad. Yeah. Her mum thought her biological dad was her dad. Ooh. So this changes her life. She's 30 at this point, and she felt like it just washed away all of her identity, and the dad felt like everything had been taken away from him. what a cruel thing to do.

Kyle Risi: 30:15

Wow

Adam Cox: 30:15

And so, with this now discovered, this means there's now at least nine siblings. Only one was allowed! Exactly. Cline said that there should only be 10, right? Jacoba finally gets a meeting with Cline, along with some of her other half siblings. And she describes it as a very weird meeting. He was really interested to know their age and careers and try and gauge how successful they all were. That's how it felt to her, at least. And now, you could think, or perhaps he's just trying to get to know them a little bit, but Jacoba felt like they were being ranked.

Kyle Risi: 30:46

Ooh, makes me feel like this is what, some, Sheldon from, Big Bang Theory would do, because he's such a genius, he would, like, wanting to have a few babies and then just see how much of his genetic material he can pass off onto the next person?

Adam Cox: 31:00

Yeah, well, possibly, I don't know. this, I think it's a bit darker in this instance, because at this meeting, Klein reads a quote from the Bible from Jeremiah, chapter one, verse five, I think it is, uh, where it says, God says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you before you were born, I sanctioned you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations. And this is one of the verses that apparently a lot of people don't like because it brings to attention, the control of God and Jacoba, who is a Christian, this infuriated her as it implied that Dr. Klein was playing God. And so one of Jacoba's siblings asked him at this meeting, why did he do it? And he said that he did it because he felt sorry for the mothers. They were desperate for a child, he was just trying to help them because perhaps they had tried to use their partner's sperm or another donor and that didn't work and he knew his probably would. And so he did it. But

Kyle Risi: 31:49

what about all the sperm donors from the sexy, um, medical students working down the road that Donna was collecting in her

Adam Cox: 31:57

breasts? I'm guessing they got used some of the time, but not all the time. This is sick. Yeah. He also added at this point, at this meeting, that there can't be any more than 15 siblings. Okay, so the number's growing now. He's changed his story. Now that they've found a few more. what angers those that were affected by Dr. Klein the most, I think, is that how it made them feel. Sure. As I mentioned, when Jacoba was conceived, along with a lot of her siblings, back then, sperm donations had to be fresh, not frozen, which is why you had Klein's nurse carrying specimens over in her bra. Or you had husbands or boyfriends bringing a sample from home in pretty quickly. So I think when people realised what he could have been doing in that clinic, it made them feel gross, because they had to use fresh sperm, he would disappear into a room, come back with it, and then inseminate a woman who's in a very vulnerable position. She's being medically analyzed. She's got a hospital gown on, her legs are raised in stirrups, and you've got this doctor taking advantage, getting his rocks off next door. How gross is that?

Kyle Risi: 33:00

Yeah, it is gross.

Adam Cox: 33:01

And these women are sitting there on this table for 20 minutes as they're thinking positive thoughts and just hoping this time round it works. Not knowing actually what is exactly going on. Sure,

Kyle Risi: 33:12

God, so the thing is, let's talk about some of the numbers here because you're thinking, if he's saying that, A, there is potentially 15 out there now, because that's grown. Not every insemination is successful. Let's just assume if you're really lucky and you're really fertile, maybe one out of every five. So if he's managed to potentially have 15 kids, he's been doing this a lot. Multiply that by five.

Adam Cox: 33:39

Yeah, one of the mothers actually says because she went to him 15 times before she got pregnant and I guess she doesn't know if he used his sperm 15 times or someone else's. But to her, it made her feel like she'd been raped 15 times is what she says. And if he was

Kyle Risi: 33:55

doing it selectively because he felt sorry for individual mothers. Then he was, he probably did do that to her 15 times because he had probably selected her out, like, I'm going to let me help her

Adam Cox: 34:05

out. Yeah. and she felt like she was raped. Yeah, and I don't think she means that in the physical sense. But I think it's the impact how it affected her mentally and how it made her feel sick in her stomach. This mental trauma that she suffered from it is the equivalent, And also, I think the bit that she felt very weird about is that when Klein was doing this in the room next door, he would have had these endorphins released, and that perhaps there was a gratification with what he was doing to these women. yeah, that's where her mind was going with this. Was there something sexual in this? Klein denied that he said that this was purely just to help women and his colleagues had no idea what he was doing. He came across incredibly professional, confident, strict, mind you. you wouldn't want to cross him. But he was very assured and respected in his field and plus he was a devout Christian as well. Oh really?

Kyle Risi: 34:55

Ooh, I mean, when you say he was a devout Christian, as if like, oh, how could they do this? I'm not surprised. Yeah. I mean, that,has the opposite effect on me, unfortunately. I'm really intrigued to see what he looks like.

Adam Cox: 35:07

Can I Google him? Yeah, you can Google him. I

Kyle Risi: 35:09

okay, yeah. so that's him. He looks like a tortoise.

Adam Cox: 35:15

Yeah, I mean, he's an old man now. I think he's in his 70s, 80s. Wow, okay.

Kyle Risi: 35:20

Oh. Interesting, yeah, he just looks like just a regular old guy with white hair. Reminds me a bit like Dr. Harold Shipman,

Adam Cox: 35:26

if I'm honest. Oh, yeah, that's an interesting point. I hope he's not as prolific, that's for sure. Yeah, well, as we were talking about being a Christian and everything, you'd think he'd be like, a good person, right? Yeah. but he wasn't afraid to threaten news stations, which was Fox 59, and the reporter, Angela, with being sued. He alluded to knowing people in high places he could call upon. And so Klein tried to get the ongoing investigation dropped. he reached out to Jacobo, and he described it as a real problem for him. And that it risked his relationship with his wife after 57 years of marriage. Well, I mean, he should have done what he done, right? I know! The cheek of him. And you actually, there's a documentary where you hear the phone call of where he's going Oh, really? I think so. Unless it's dramatised, but I think it was his voice. And you just think, the nerve of you to do that, to say oh, you're affecting my life, can you drop this please? Yeah. Jacoba being a strong woman that she is, she wasn't having any of it. She calmly said I'm not going to stop what the press is doing because Jacoba felt she had the right to publicize it because there could be more siblings out there not knowing and because more were still getting in touch with her through 23andMe, she felt like it was her duty to let people know.

Kyle Risi: 36:38

Yeah, for sure. And they're gonna, it's gonna come out anyway, regardless, every person that gets onto 23andMe, they're gonna have the same DNA matches, and it's just gonna be one of them that's gonna be like, this

Adam Cox: 36:49

is weird. Yeah, especially as it's growing.

Kyle Risi: 36:51

Yeah, exactly. It's gonna come out regardless of whether or not Jacoba

Adam Cox: 36:55

has anything to do with it. Yeah, he's trying to keep it quiet, but how long can you do that for? Genie's out the bottle, man. And Klein's comments and stuff just fuels Jacoba further. She's still not getting anywhere with the general attorney office. And Jacoba decides that she's going to do her own research, and I mean, papers on the wall, photos, bits of string, a proper mind map investigation from like, blogs, papers he wrote, conferences he went to, where he studied, everything. She means business. She does indeed. And Jacoba felt there's more than 15 siblings out there, I know it. Really? And this is why Klein wanted to keep it quiet, because he didn't want more people finding out. Jacoba identifies that the majority of her siblings live within a 25 mile radius. So, in the grand scheme of things, pretty close. Some actually live within minute of Klein, and probably had, bumped into him every now and again, not knowing that's my dad. Yeah. one of the siblings says that they would get a new, sibling alert via 23andMe, and they pray, oh please don't let it be someone I know, or dated, or anything like that, because there's stories of these siblings just walking around and actually just going, you look a lot like me. Oh. Could you be my brother? Yeah. Cline eventually agrees to meet Angela, actually, at Fox 59, in a restaurant, and he intimidates her by making it appear. Like he has a gun in his pocket. I don't know if he actually did, but he definitely made it appear to her like, you should be, be warned. okay. He tries to convince Angela to drop the story, but Angela's like jacoba, they felt the truth mattered. And it's after this meeting, with the reporter that some really strange things started to happen to the siblings. this is allegedly so there's no way to confirm that it is connected to him, but it's very suss because Jacoba woke up one morning to find the wheel nuts of her car on the floor next to her car tires. So who would've done that in the middle of the night? God.

Kyle Risi: 38:48

A good Christian man. A good

Adam Cox: 38:50

Christian man, maybe. Julie, the lady that found out that her father was not her biological father. Yeah. Kept a record of everything she had on Klein on her computer on a Google Drive. Yeah. And one day she discovered that everything in that drive was gone, including every email that she had on Klein was also wiped. How? I don't know, but she thinks someone might have got in and deleted that. Dunno how. And then another sibling actually describes having nuisance calls, one from a cemetery that was getting in touch with her about a plot that she wished to be buried in. Wow. So that's the scariest one, I think.

Kyle Risi: 39:25

Yeah, that's like a dog whistle death threat.

Adam Cox: 39:27

Yeah. And so he wanted those siblings to stop talking. But they were undeterred by this, and Jacoba finds out back in 1963. Donald Klein was involved in an unfortunate accident. He accidentally ran over a little girl when she darted out in front of his car whilst driving. She really sadly dies and this has a big impact on him. And people think, maybe does this lead him to go on to what he does? Because he gets, um, I guess restored or even deeper faith in God. And so some have tried to make I guess logic of that reason because is he trying to make amends for this loss of life by bringing all these extra lives into the world? Now, it's a bit of a stretch and I think it could be people trying to humanise him in a way to find some rationale for his actions. Yeah, like

Kyle Risi: 40:16

where's this all coming from? Is this coming from a PR team or is this, did you see who uncovered this information? Was this Jakoba?

Adam Cox: 40:22

Jakoba found out that he was in an accident, yes. Um, and because people think this might have affected his relationship with the church and God, because he was ingrained in the church, he taught marriage counselling, he, did Sunday school, he would even encourage his staff at his clinic to pray with him. His office even had things on the wall that said if you want to get into heaven, you had to be a Christian, which offended people of other faiths, like a colleague of his who was Jewish. Okay. And it turns out that the church he was at was governed by this body of eight men, and there would be baptisms at his house, in his swimming pool, which was attended by 50 to 100 people. And Chocoba lands on this lead in particular. She gets an email from the Attorney General's office. And it's looped in with other people in that email. And so what she does is she does some serious internet stalking because she looks at everyone on that email chain. Mm-Hmm. And she starts looking at them on Facebook and other social media, and she finds someone with a qui full email address.

Kyle Risi: 41:21

What a qui. A qui full. A qui full.

Adam Cox: 41:24

I don't know what that is. It's like quiver with full on the end. Oh, you're

Kyle Risi: 41:28

saying the word. Quiverful. Quiverful. I thought you were saying, it's a thing that I've never heard of. It's a whole brand new word!

Adam Cox: 41:36

Yeah, but do you know what quiverful is? It sounds sexual. It's not, it's not. Okay. Well, no it shouldn't be. Um, quiverful is a Christian theological position that sees large families as a blessing from God. It encourages abstaining from all forms of birth control, natural family planning and sterilization. And at the core is a desire to obey God's commandment as stated in the Bible, and among those commandments is be fruitful and multiply. Okay, And so they describe their, the movement, and their motivation as a missionary effort to raise up as many children as Christians To advance the cause of the Christian religion. And children are a blessing, and we should have our quiver full of them. Make sense now? No. Quiver full? A quiver full of children?

Kyle Risi: 42:25

You keep saying it. Doesn't

Adam Cox: 42:27

make it any clearer to me. basically, if a man has a lot of children, he'll be sending them out as arrows to the world to be ambassadors for God. Where does

Kyle Risi: 42:35

the arrow come from in quiver

Adam Cox: 42:36

full? Because a quiver is where you store your arrows. You didn't explain that! I thought you knew what a quiver was. No! Yeah, a quiver is where you store your arrows. And this movement called the Quiver Fall is about sending out these arrows. Yeah. Can you see the connection here? So very

Kyle Risi: 42:56

vaguely, but yes, okay.

Adam Cox: 42:57

but supposedly these children are raised to actively participate in government, seek political prominence and integrate with higher society and spread the word of God. Which you could say is a callback to why he was so interested in his offspring when he met them, because he was asking, what do you do? What have you studied? All these things. Right, I see. And also actually this last point. So one of the quotes that the Quiverfall people really draw upon from the Bible. Yeah. Is Jeremiah chapter one, verse five, Before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you. But I think what we're kind of suggesting is is he part of this quiverful cult? Which is all about getting a lot of children out there to spread the word of God. clearly he is.

Kyle Risi: 43:37

But it would be really funny if they were all on the doll. Yeah. All of his kids were on benefits, government handouts, that would be brilliant. He didn't do a good job.

Adam Cox: 43:47

Yeah, it's

Kyle Risi: 43:47

oh no. He wouldn't want that to get back to the quiverful, head

Adam Cox: 43:51

offs, would he? Head offs, no. Exactly. there's no proof that he conspired with the Attorney General's office or he's part of this Quiver 4 movement. but I think there's enough evidence there. or at least coincidences, and especially with people's, data on their computer going missing and the death threats, there's just a lot of weird things to happen all of a sudden. And with this being discovered, it just feels like there's a darker undertone or something in society. Maybe. Allegedly. We don't know. For sure.

Kyle Risi: 44:20

Sounds like you're protecting yourself. Are you worried that someone's going to come and sue us because of this podcast episode?

Adam Cox: 44:25

Maybe. He's tried it before. Allegedly. Maybe. And so it was up to Angela, to press at the Attorney's General Office and finally she gets hold of someone that can help prosecute. But the challenge is, technically, based on the law at that time, there was nothing in the law to say that what he'd done was a crime? Oh really?

Kyle Risi: 44:44

So he's completely, well I guess because

Adam Cox: 44:45

he's just a donor, right? Yeah, and there's nothing, there's no wrongdoing as such. There's no sexual violation despite what people felt and that's not

Kyle Risi: 44:54

taking it away. It's the lack of transparency

Adam Cox: 44:57

and openness. Because people are trying to get him for sexual assault, battery, fraud, but to convict someone of those crimes it needed to have been with force and non consent. And so there was no force. And they were consented to be inseminated by a donor. But they were also under

Kyle Risi: 45:13

the understanding that it would

Adam Cox: 45:14

not

Kyle Risi: 45:14

be

Adam Cox: 45:15

him, right? Exactly. And I think this is the thing, they're like, I wouldn't have had him as my father. Yeah, looks like a Mr. Turtle. Or they're like, the option, maybe some would have done, but no one actually asked them. And that's the whole point. But Angela finds out that the Attorney General did manage to speak to Dr. Klein a while back, and in writing, he denied everything to them, that he never used his sperm, and in writing, he also says something to the effect about jacopa, which could be considered libel, and this is what actually gets him, not because of his crime, but he had lied. in writing and this kind of slight threat to Jacoba is what like, okay, we can get you charged based on this.

Kyle Risi: 45:53

I see. I see. Good.

Adam Cox: 45:55

So a search warrant is put out for his DNA and he has to give it and so it gets sent away and it comes back and the likelihood that he is Jacoba's father is 99. 9997%.

Kyle Risi: 46:07

Wow, so that's as high as you can get, right? Because you can never be 100 percent certain. Wow. Pretty much. that's her dad. let's prove what we've known all

Adam Cox: 46:12

along. He is charged with the obstruction of justice. Oh, how? Why? Because he lied. Of course! okay. So he is charged with obstruction of justice 20 months after Jacoba first reaches out to Angela on So this has been going on for a couple of years. Yeah. He pleads guilty but could never be tried for all the crimes he committed. The court could only consider him on the crime, that he was being charged for the obstruction of justice where he lied in writing, whilst he's convicted of a level 6 felony charge, He gets a suspended jail sentence and is fined just 500. Oh right, is that it? That is it.

Kyle Risi: 46:49

That's how much I'd pay for a sperm. A sperm? No, not a sperm, I mean a sperm lotion. so That's gross, no I wouldn't. If I was a woman getting inseminated, I would pay 500 for Debbie's boob sperm. That she's keeping

Adam Cox: 47:03

warm. gross. Um, so yeah, I think that is a complete piss take. Yeah. Because that's no real justice for these siblings. No. And their families, the people that have found out that, they've been lied to and their dads and everything like

Kyle Risi: 47:17

that. Yeah. Did we ever find out how many siblings they have in the end?

Adam Cox: 47:21

I'm leaving that to the very end. Oh really? Yeah. And so for Jacoba and her siblings, who continued to get alerts of DNA matches to other half siblings throughout all of this, they had to settle with this verdict.

Kyle Risi: 47:32

what about child support? Could they not sue for child support? And make him pay for Being their dad. Because that's one way they could get in, right? And also, back pay. Get

Adam Cox: 47:41

back pay child support. But I guess because there's probably paperwork which waives any rights to child support I guess so. That's the thing, it's all just the lying and the underhandness and the creepiness of it all. So, um, the last few points I just want to cover, is that any sperm donor should not have any hereditary illnesses that can be passed on. Oh God. And Klein says that he believed all of his children were healthy, because he only sparingly gave his sperm samples. Oh no, they were all part turtle. Part turtle. No, but a lot of them, pretty much all of them actually, have an auto immune disease, like blood clotting. some have spent weeks in hospital with digestion and colon issues. And it turns out since the seventies, Klein had rheumatoid arthritis. And so if he does have an auto immune disease, which could affect his offspring, he should never have been allowed to be a sperm donor in the first place. Yet, if he knew he had this, he went ahead and did it anyway. And he's claiming that he didn't know this. he had Rheumatoid Arthritis in the 70s, which was before he started his clinic. I think what the report was suggesting is that he probably did know. It's implying that he did know, yeah. Another one of his biological daughters finds out what happened to her. when she was watching a U. S. talk show, which had Jacoba on, and some of her other siblings appeared, She instantly recognized those names because of what appeared on her 23andMe results. And so, she instantly knew what happened to her, but the thing is, though, like Julie and her family, she thought her dad was her biological dad. And Clyde even came to her house to visit to check in on her her family when she was born. And there's a photo of Klein picking her up when she's eight months old, so she's with her biological dad and he came over. That's really creepy. And not only did she have to come to terms with all of that, she ended up being a patient of Klein's herself. Now for insemination. he was her fertility doctor and also for gynecological needs. I think as well. Mm hmm and was no he didn't follow He didn't father one of her children, but he did examine her. He

Kyle Risi: 49:48

examined her That's his

Adam Cox: 49:48

daughter Yeah, and he knew that Most likely. Let's rank. Yep. And lastly, the bit that you asked about is how many children. So, Jacoba started her journey wanting to find one or two siblings that she could bond with. Well, at the time of this podcast, There are 93 siblings out there. Shit. 93!

Kyle Risi: 50:12

And that's all that we know about.

Adam Cox: 50:13

And counting. And they're

Kyle Risi: 50:14

all just popped up from the 23andMe. That's the only avenue that we're collecting siblings through.

Adam Cox: 50:20

As far as I'm aware, yes. Unless there's other DNA.

Kyle Risi: 50:24

Wow, do we have any are they all in the

Adam Cox: 50:26

same area? Pretty much. A lot of them have blonde hair and blue eyes. Wow. There's even a thought like, was he trying to build like some kind of perfect race? Oh gosh. But there's all these kind of conspiracy theories that come off the back of this thing. But I think this guy was gross. And yeah, actually, since, um, this, news came to light, you there's actually been 50 doctors that have been identified to have used their own sperm for artificial inseminations. But Dr. Klein is the most prolific of all of them. The fact that

Kyle Risi: 50:55

there is just another one that they know about that is horrendous. This is a gross abuse of trust. Mm. The fact that there's more out there, that just shocks me. How long has he been doing this over what? What period do they think that he's been doing this

Adam Cox: 51:10

over? So he started his clinic in 1979. I think he worked for 30 years, but I think the siblings they're all around 30 to 40 years old. So they think it's probably in a space of 5 to 10 years he did this. Okay, and then he gave

Kyle Risi: 51:23

up. He was like, I've got enough

Adam Cox: 51:24

kids. Probably, yeah. I don't know why he gave up, but yeah. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. And in 2018, the mothers and siblings involved this, did manage to get legislation passed successfully in Indiana, making it, illegal for any illicit donor inseminations. which is a result for them, because they finally got some kind of justice in this. However, from what I understand, there's no federal law, which means it could happen in other states still. Sure.

Kyle Risi: 51:53

And there won't be a federal law until something really bad happens. like when it comes to the federal government, they don't really like to intervene until they absolutely have to. And yeah, like with the skyjacking when we did, the DB Cooper, we found that all those skyjackings were happening throughout the seventies and it wasn't even illegal. They didn't make it illegal until years and years later, so there probably won't

Adam Cox: 52:14

be a law. Yeah, and if it's a federal law anyway, but more states, hopefully we'll take this on board But yeah, what a crazy crazy story and it just really affects a lot of people's lives. Wow it's just gross and murky. Mm hmm. Exactly

Kyle Risi: 52:29

oh, I'm sad it wasn't Kelvin Klein. Because that'd be cool to have Kelvin Klein as your dad, right? Okay, Dad, can you hook me up with some underwear? Oh yeah, okay, great. Thanks. yeah, maybe. Let's run

Adam Cox: 52:40

the outro. And so we come to the end of another episode of the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. If you found today's episode both fascinating and intriguing, then please subscribe and leave us a review. And don't just stop there, schedule your episodes to download automatically. Doing this not only ensures you're always in the loop, but also boosts our visibility, helping us to serve you even more captivating tales straight to your ears. you can also follow us on Instagram at The Compendium Podcast, or visit our home on the web at thecompendiumpodcast. com. We release new episodes every Tuesday, and so until then, remember, be careful when delving into your DNA, as it can be like peering into a two way mirror. The image before you might be concealing something unexpected on the other side.

Kyle Risi: 53:24

Like Debbie and her

Adam Cox: 53:26

boobies. I don't think her name was Debbie.

Kyle Risi: 53:28

Why can't it just be Debbie? I just feel like it's Debbie. Like Dirty Debs, coming back from The medical student kind of dormitory, with her loads.

Adam Cox: 53:37

Until next

Kyle Risi: 53:40

week. See you later.